Episode 92: How to Avoid Becoming the Second Victim with Dr Caraline Wright & Dr Lizzie Sweeting

When something goes wrong, healthcare professionals often tend to feel responsible and develop shame and guilt as a result. In other words, we adopt the position of “rescuer”. But when we don’t handle adverse patient safety incidents well, we can become “second victims” as well.

In this episode, Dr Caraline Wright and Dr Lizzie Sweeting join us to discuss the second victim phenomenon. They explain why patient safety incidents are occupational hazards and how they can affect healthcare providers. Caraline then shares her personal experience of being in the “second victim” role.

Finally, they share tips on how to avoid second victimhood and how to provide support to someone going through it.

Listen to this episode to know more about the second victim phenomenon and how you avoid it!

Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

  1. Understand what the second victim phenomenon is and why it needs addressing.

  2. Learn what you can do to avoid becoming a second victim.
  3. Discover the importance of workplace support systems in combatting second victimhood.

Episode Highlights

[04:31] What is a Second Victim?

  • A second victim is a healthcare provider who becomes traumatised due to an unanticipated adverse patient event, such as a medical error or patient-related injury.

  • The term was coined in the healthcare sphere for patient safety incidents. However, it can apply to other industries as well.

[05:33] How Patient Safety Relates to Second Victimhood

  • Research shows that up to 50% of healthcare system staff can experience second victimhood as a result of a patient safety incident.

  • As a result of being involved in a patient safety incident, someone can experience a spectrum of effects, from acute stress to suicidal ideation.
  • The incident itself can also lead to medico-legal consequences. This, in turn, can cause more stress and anxiety for those involved.

[6:59] Determining Second Victimhood

  • Second victimhood is specific to being involved in a patient safety incident.

  • The feelings you get from a patient safety incident differ from the distress and fatigue associated with normal workplace pressures.
  • Many healthcare professionals tend to be perfectionists. So, they feel shame and guilt from patient safety incidents, even if they are unavoidable.

[10:17] Caraline’s Experience with Second Victimhood

  • In the first year of her GP training, she started handling a man with a long history of depression and alcoholism.

  • He was known to have limited engagement with healthcare professionals, but Caraline built up a relationship with him.
  • They got to a point where she felt he could reduce the frequency of his appointments. Shortly after, Caraline learned that her patient committed suicide.
  • Though her mentors assured her they would not have done anything differently, she couldn’t shake off feeling guilty and responsible for this patient safety incident.
  • Over the next 6-12 months, Caraline struggled with trauma, avoidance, guilt, and anxiety.

[14:47] Post-Second Victimhood

‘Bad things will happen. And we will make mistakes. But it’s finding a way to manage that and not let it impact on your sense of self.’

  • While Caraline still feels emotional about what happened, she has realised that it’s part of the job.

‘The world that we’re working in, is getting more complex and busier all the time. So we’re going to make mistakes. And even if we don’t make mistakes, things will go wrong.’

  • Since medics desire to help people, they are bound to experience shame and guilt in their profession.
  • Following patient safety incidents, healthcare professionals tend to shift to a defensive practice or leave the career altogether.
  • Shame from the patient safety incident also hinders them from sharing their experience. As such, we need to reduce the stigma associated with these events.

[21:52] How to React to Patient Safety Incidents

  • Healthcare providers need to know that patient safety incidents are occupational hazards.

  • When something bad does happen, organisations need to provide quick and appropriate responses tailored to the individual’s needs.
  • These can be offering them space to talk with a peer, counselling, or time off work.
  • If organisations can cultivate a supportive working environment, healthcare workers may not need individualised help.
  • Looking back, Caraline feels this support would have been most helpful to her after the patient safety incident.

‘The thing that’s really helped me has been sharing and hearing other people’s experiences, and also how grateful they are that somebody’s talking about it.’

[28:44] How to Support Second Victims

  • Listen with fascination. Just let someone talk and explain, even if you’ve not felt like that yourself.

  • To help normalise their experience, let them know that lots of people feel the same way.

‘All you have to do is hear one story that sticks in your head.’

  • Know that even if they are not to blame, they are likely to feel responsible. Instead of trying to fix the problem, simply try to empathise.
  • Be aware of what second victimhood is and how that might affect your colleagues.

[34:06] Lizzie and Caraline’s Message About Second Victimhood

  • Don’t be afraid to share your story, as it can be valuable to others.

‘That ability to connect and talk things through is better than kind of any support or counselling that’s on offer.’

  • Having one another to talk things through can be helpful. For Lizzie, it’s all about the relationships at the end of the day.

[35:59] The Impact of COVID-19 on Second Victimhood

  • Working remotely has caused us to become removed from one another, as we can’t create connections as well.

  • However, with effort, we can still create spaces online.
  • Rather than waiting for other people to set up peer networks, we can organise one for ourselves.
  • The key is finding your tribe: the people that are really going to get you and you’re going to be able to talk to.

[38:07] Caraline and Lizzie’s Top Three Tips

  • Know that second victimhood exists. If something happens, you can offer or seek support.

‘I think it’s often about, you know, the shared experiences and the shared learning that we can take from these things and not being afraid to share.’

  • Have a support system.
  • Be kind to yourself and your colleagues.

‘We just need to emphasise the importance of those relationships and connectedness amongst all of us.’

About the Guests

Dr Lizzie Sweeting is a GP Trainee who works in the emergency department at Bradford Teaching Hospitals. She is also the co-lead for the managing deterioration workstream of the Patient Safety Collaborative. Lizzie is an alumnus of the Improvement Academy, an organisation composed of improvement scientists, patient safety experts, and clinicians.

You can connect with Lizzie on Twitter.

Dr Caraline Wright is an Airedale General Practice Specialty Training and Health Education England Leadership Fellow. She holds a GP Cert in Medical Education from Lancaster University.

You can reach out to Caraline through Twitter.

Enjoyed This Podcast?

In today’s high-stress work environment, you may feel like a frog in boiling water. The pan has heated up so slowly that you didn’t notice the feeling of stress and overwhelm becoming the norm. You may feel that it is impossible to survive AND thrive in your work.

Frogs generally have only two options — stay and be boiled alive or jump out of the pan. Fortunately, you are not a frog. You have many more options, choices and control than you think.

Learn to master your destiny so that you can thrive even in the most difficult of situations. If you enjoyed today’s episode of You Are Not a Frog Podcast, then hit subscribe now!

Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning into this podcast, do not hesitate to write a review and share this with your friends so they too can learn how to better relationships.

Episode Transcript

Dr Rachel Morris: Have you ever had an experience at work which has stuck with you and been particularly traumatic, even though you cope with lots of stressful stuff on a daily basis? Have you ever found yourself ruminating and going over what happened time and time again and felt like it was all your fault, even if your colleagues have reassured you that you’re not to blame? If so, you may have become a second victim.

In this episode, I’m joined by Dr Caraline Wright and Dr Lizzie Sweeting who are both GP trainees and GP clinical leadership fellows, both who have a particular interest in the second victim syndrome. Listen if you want to know just exactly what we mean by the second victim, and how it’s different from the usual stresses and strains of our jobs, and why it can have such a devastating effect on us, and why often things people say to us can make it worse, not better. Listen if you want to know the most useful way of dealing with it and supporting colleagues when we notice that they are struggling.

Welcome to You Are Not A Frog, the podcast for doctors and other busy professionals who want to beat burnout and work happier. I’m Dr Rachel Morris. I’m a GP, now working as a coach, speaker, and specialist in teaching resilience. Even before the coronavirus crisis, we were facing unprecedented levels of burnout. We have been described as frogs in a pan of slowly boiling water. We hardly notice the extra-long days becoming the norm and have got used to feeling stressed and exhausted.

Let’s face it, frogs generally only have two options: stay in a pan and be boiled alive or jump out of the pan and leave. But you are not a frog. And that’s where this podcast comes in. It is possible to craft your working life so that you can thrive even in difficult circumstances. And if you’re happier at work, you will simply do a better job. In this podcast, I’ll be inviting you inside the minds of friends, colleagues and experts—all who have an interesting take on this. So that together we can take back control and love what we do again.

I’d like to let you know about a webinar we’ve got coming up all about the three crucial conversations you need to have with your team right now to help them deal with their workload and beat the feelings of stress and overwhelm that many people are feeling at the moment. It’s totally free, and it’s particularly for leaders in health and social care. So if you want to build a robust team through difficult times without burning out yourself, then do join us by clicking on the link in the show notes to register.

It’s fantastic to have with me on the podcast today, Dr Lizzie Sweeting. She’s a GP Trainee on the Pennine scheme. She’s also a GP clinical leadership fellow, working currently with the Improvements Academy. Now, this is a team of improvement scientists, frontline clinicians, and patient safety experts, all put together to deliver real and lasting change. Welcome, Lizzie.

Dr Lizzie Sweeting: Thank you very much for having me.

Rachel: It’s also brilliant to have Dr Caraline Wright, who’s a GP Trainee in the Airedale scheme in West Yorkshire, and she’s also a GP clinical leadership fellow working with Health Education England on their future leadership programme. Hi, Caraline.

Dr Caraline Wright: Hey!

Rachel: Caraline originally got in touch with me after… I think we met during a Next Generation GP event that I was speaking at and we have, I think, mentioned a little bit about the second victim during the session. Is that right?

Caraline: Yeah.

Rachel: You’ve got in touch to say, “Actually, I think it’d be really good to do a podcast about this,” and then, having sort of chatted to Caraline and thought, “Actually, yeah. This would be a really, really important thing to talk about because I think it’s something that affects us all to some extent.” I know, Caraline, you’ve got some personal experience of that, haven’t you?

Caraline: Yeah.

Rachel: Then, Lizzie, you’re actually taking the lead on this for some work about the second victim for the Improvement Academy.

Lizzie: Yeah, I’m leading some work on kind of just coaching second victim network and we have a support website called secondvictim.co.uk. So we’re working closely with research teams on how we can best support healthcare professionals who experienced second victim.

Rachel: Great. It’s really great to have you both here to talk about this. I’m just so grateful you got in touch about it. Lizzie, can I start with maybe a definition of what a second victim is? Because I’m not always entirely clear about what we mean by the second victim.

Lizzie: Yeah, so there are various definitions out there but one that we use at the Improvement Academy and in our literature on the website is that a second victim is a healthcare provider who is involved in an unanticipated adverse patient event, whether that be a medical error or patient-related injury. They become victimised in the sense that the providers, the healthcare professionals, are traumatised by that particular event. It’s normally in the sphere of patient safety incidents is when second victim, as it’s often called, comes in play.

Rachel: Is it just healthcare that this happens or can it happen elsewhere?

Lizzie: So it’s been coined in the kind of healthcare sphere, kind of research has been coming out for 20 years, and it’s always been related to healthcare but I would imagine it is applicable to all industries.

Rachel: Yeah. Why did the Improvement Academy think it was really important to do this work?

Lizzie: One of my predecessors, one of the previous clinical leadership fellows, started this work back in 2017, and they had been working with a research group called the Yorkshire Quality And Research Group. They do a lot of research into workforce well-being, workforce engagement in the sphere of patient safety.

One of the colleagues who I work with, Professor Rebecca Lawton, does a lot of work in this sphere and found that it can happen to up to 50% of staff within the healthcare system can experience second victimhood as a result of a patient safety incident. They thought it would be a good idea to bring together all the resources and literature into one place to support staff involved in health care, patient safety.

Rachel: That’s a huge statistic. I was going to ask how much of a problem is this really. 50%. That’s a lot, isn’t it? What sorts of issues does it cause for people?

Lizzie: It can vary from person to person. It’s a spectrum like anything but some people can suffer from acute stress, others can be at the other end of the spectrum suffer from suicidal ideation and even suicide as a result of being involved in a patient safety incident. The incidents themselves can also kind of lead to medico-legal consequences, which then, in turn, can cause more stress and anxiety for those involved.

Rachel: How would I know if I have become a second victim? How would I know what the difference is between second victimhood and just sort of experiencing the stuff that goes along with the job, really?

Lizzie: Yeah and I think that’s a really important question, especially in the time of working with COVID and the increased pressures that all GPs and all healthcare professionals are working.

The second victim is related to patient safety incident; whereas I would say all those other things, though you can feel stressed due to workload issues and all the other things that are going on in the world, but second victim is specific to being involved in a patient safety incident. The feelings that you might get from being involved in that such as shame and guilt might differ from the distress and fatigue associated with normal workplace pressures.

Rachel: Does it always have to have an element of ‘This was my fault, it wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t done this’?

Lizzie: Well, not necessarily. It might have been an unavoidable patient safety incident and I think what Caraline will go on to talk about later is something that was probably unavoidable. As healthcare professionals, we’re all quite perfectionists, aren’t we? We do things, and we don’t like making mistakes, let alone admitting them so I think there’s a lot of guilt and shame associated with being involved in an incident, even if it was a tiny part to play and nothing could have been changed.

Rachel: Does it always have to have an adverse outcome or can you be a second victim just if someone’s making a complaint, and it’s a bit vexatious and nothing really bad happened?

Lizzie: I think this is a bit contentious. At the moment, my colleagues and I, we’re actually doing a literature review into this. We’re finding that a lot of the papers in the academic world mix those together: whether it’s a complaint, whether it’s a traumatic event such as a cardiac arrest, for example, versus whether it’s something that could have gone wrong due to the error of the healthcare professional. It’s all quite mixed together, and it’s quite muddy water.

Rachel: Yeah. The problem with medicine is nothing’s ever really cut and dried, is it? I guess it’s like life, but I’m sure most people listening to the podcast will be able to put their minds back and think to times when things didn’t go to plan or something really dreadful happened, whether it was their fault, or whether they’re a sort of conglomerate of things that happen.

I can certainly remember some pretty dreadful stuff, actually, when I was working. I knew that happened and maybe things could have been done differently. Maybe they couldn’t but it was very traumatic to watch, and I think even if everything that could have been done was done, you always have that niggling ‘what if.’ ‘What if something different had been done? What if that hadn’t happened or this hadn’t happened?’ It’s quite hard to get your head around, really.

I think this is really helpful to discuss whether we are actually really having second victimhood issues or whether actually there are lots of little incidents that have gone along slightly. I think it’s that spectrum of things that can cause real stress. Caraline, I’d like to come to you because I know you’ve had some real personal experience with this. What happened to you?

Caraline: I was working as an ST1 so the first year of general practice training, but in a local practice. I really enjoyed it. I really liked the practice and the team had really good feedback, and my supervisor was really great. I was seeing a patient in his 30s and recently had a baby. He had a long history of depression and heavy drinking. He’d always had limited engagement with the practice.

He’d see a GP once and then not sign up to the follow-up appointment and then wouldn’t see anyone for sort of six months to a year, but he had multiple visits to see me over a three-month period. I felt that we really built up a relationship. He started self-help and started taking antidepressants, reduced his drinking, which was a massive achievement, and started attending a family support group.

We reached the stage where we both thought that we could reduce the frequency of his appointments. The next would either be his antidepressant review or earlier if he felt that he needed it. A couple of weeks passed, it was a Friday afternoon, which is when I always had a tutorial with my trainers, and neither of us had any appointments booked in. My trainer came into my room and told me that this man that I’ve been seeing had committed suicide, and he’d found out the day before.

He gave me lots of support. He already reviewed the record and discussed with the other partners in the practice. They agreed there was nothing that they would have done differently, so there was no blame or criticism. No one told me that I’d done anything wrong. It was explained to me that there would be a significant event within the practice, and I was encouraged to reflect on my portfolio, which is something that all GP trainees and DPDs do.

He also told the training program directors who were the people that run your GP in your area so that I had other people to talk to if I wanted to. I sat in my room and I felt completely devastated and overwhelmed and really sad for the family, but the thoughts that were going through my head was that I should have been able to do more, that I should have been able to prevent it. I kept asking myself, ‘Would things have been different if it’s in a different GP?’

I thought that I can’t be a doctor. I felt that I was incompetent and actually, even if I wasn’t incompetent, I was too emotional because if this has destroyed me, then maybe I’m just not cut out to be a GP. And I love general practice. Overwhelmingly, I felt that my colleagues, my peers, and my friends and family, would think that I should have been able to do something, that I’m responsible for this man, and that I’m a bad doctor, and an awful person.

I plucked up the courage to ring my mum. She trained as a psychiatric nurse, and she worked in the community for many years. I thought that she would have been through a similar experience, and she told me that she’d never been in the same position, which reinforced my feelings. And I was then too ashamed to share with anyone else. I went home but I didn’t tell my husband or my friends and over the following six to twelve months, I really struggled with the components of second victim: so with traumatisation, avoidance, and guilt.

In terms of traumatisation, I had lots of really intrusive thoughts. I felt like I was re-experiencing the events. I had a lot of vivid dreams, slept very poorly, and I was quite tearful. I felt very anxious and overcautious whenever I saw patients that were low in mood, and I felt a real deep sense of guilt and shame that was really overwhelming at times. Also in relation to other similar situations where somebody jumped in front of a train I was on about six months later, and I felt incredible guilt and responsibility for that.

Then, even after I’d been through the significant event, which actually was quite helpful in my practice, being able to go through and review of history, even being able to understand the contributing factors to the situation, I still felt that I was the responsible practitioner, and that patient put their trust in me, and I should have been able to do something. I still shared my experience and my thoughts and feelings and I’ve been able to gain perspective and it’s become manageable but it’s illustrated how important the issue is and how much we do need to talk about it.

Rachel: I’m just so sorry to hear that you went through that, and it sounds like it’s still quite an emotional thing for you now thinking back on it. How do you feel sort of looking back on all that?

Caraline: I think I do still feel emotional, and I think that as healthcare professionals, we all have some sadness or regret that we carry in our hearts. They’re always certain patients and certain circumstances that hit more of a nerve with you than others but I think now, I sort of realszed that it’s part of the job ,and it’s a privilege of what we do. Bad things will happen and we will make mistakes, but it’s finding a way to manage that and not let it impact on your sense of self. Because that’s what really happened with this that really impacted on how I viewed me. I felt like it was an intrinsic issue with me.

Rachel: That’s really difficult, isn’t it? When it’s part of your identity and part of who you are, and then, presumably, that just exacerbates the shame that people can feel.

Lizzie, is that a fairly typical reaction that people have? What does the literature say about that?

Lizzie: Yes, I think one of my colleagues who has previously worked in an occupational psychologist, well, she describes patient safety incidents for healthcare professionals as an occupational hazard. The world that we’re working in is getting more complex and busier all the time so we’re going to make mistakes, and even if we don’t make mistakes, things will go wrong. I think, especially within medics, as I mentioned before, we’re a certain type of person that goes in, we want to help people.

That’s kind of what we are and I know I’ve listened to a few of your podcasts before and you think about the Drama Triangle. We always want to be the rescuer in a situation with a patient. We never want to be seen as a perpetrator. And I think all the feelings that Caraline has shared there, yeah, I’ve heard her talk before about this, and it’s still emotional listening to her share her story now.

It’s not something that I’ve not heard before. I think we’ve all heard similar stories, whether it’s someone that’s been involved in a different type of incident and had not so much of the intrusive thoughts but still felt that shame and that guilt. I think it’s something that we’re all bound to come across.

Rachel: From the literature, which that I know, Caraline talks about trauma and she talks about avoidance and then sort of the guilt and shame. Out of those, what tends to be the most prominent?

Lizzie: I think the confidence that Caraline has mentioned there. It’s been shown in one paper that following a patient safety incident and involvement in that, the healthcare professionals make the change to defensive practice because they’ve been involved and have been scarred by what’s ever happened in the past. That’s a real common theme that comes out of those that have been involved in patient safety incidents. It can lead to absence, even leaving the career as Caraline described there, and that’s been reported in the literature as well.

Rachel: Yeah, so you’ve got leaving career. You’ve got avoidance practice, which isn’t good for the doctor or the patient because you need to get over investigation, take a lot of time, adds to your stress. You’ve got the general stress of the traumatic thoughts and things so it’s generally really, really bad news, I guess if it’s not sorted and treated.

In a minute, I’m going to ask you, what should we do, first aid for a second victim, but I just wanted to pick up what Caraline’s saying about felt that you couldn’t share it with your friends and your partner. Is that a very common thing that you’ve seen in the literature as well?

Lizzie: I think that shame element, yes, definitely. I think a lot of the work we’re doing at the moment is to try and reduce the stigma associated with being involved in something like this that Caraline and I were discussing earlier about. If you know someone else has been through it, whether that be within your training scheme, within your organisation, within the region, that you have someone to turn to, to just talk, and there’s no judgment there. That’s something that is harder to measure in terms of literature but it’s something that’s recognised as something that can be really supportive.

Rachel: Caraline, looking back on this whole thing, before it happened, would you ever have been able to predict that that was the way you would react?

Caraline: No, I don’t think I could have predicted it would be quite so distressing for me because there have been other experiences that I’ve had, particularly in ANE that have been very distressing but they just didn’t have the same effect on me. I was aware of the concept of second victim, but I always thought it was in relation to errors, and everyone told me that I hadn’t made an error. I just thought that it was because I was a bad doctor.

Rachel: Do you think that we tell ourselves these stories? Even if we literally haven’t done anything wrong, our brains always trying to tell ourselves the stories, ‘It must have been something you did wrong. It must have been a defect in your training or your learning or something wrong with you that this has happened.’

Caraline: Yeah, I definitely took on the responsibility for it, which we do. It’s the same back to that Drama Triangle. We take on a lot of responsibility from our patients, and I just kept thinking that I was responsible for this patient; therefore, I should have been able to do something to prevent what happened.

Rachel: It’s a very difficult thing, isn’t it? Because we’ve just done a series on complaints and mistakes and how to deal with them and there’s a lot of stuff around the shame that we feel and the upset and the defensiveness, even if it’s not our fault. I think the thing I struggle with, ‘What if it is our fault?’ There will be things that happen that are our faults because nobody can run on a 100% success rate.

I was wondering if this whole second victim thing is worse the more personal responsibility we do have if actually, you can directly trace something you did do or you forgot to do to the harm that’s been caused or to the adverse event. Does that make things a lot worse or is there not really much correlate?

Lizzie: I think that there’s work going on in this at the moment. And this research is looking into it and there’s not a lot of literature out there around the whole second victim phenomenon. The first time it was coined in literature was only in 2000, so we’ve made great progress to get to the point where we’re talking about it now, but I think it will only be going forward, that we’re able to kind of get those insights into whether there is a relationship between the severity of the incident and then the severity of the response to it.

Rachel: Then, what seems to help? What helps in this situation? I was interested that Caraline said she couldn’t have predicted it would be, which incident would it would have been, or whatever has been through seeing lots of dreadful stuff in ANE, as you do, and suddenly, there was this one thing. There’s thhis one thing. Given that you can’t predict it, what should you do when it happens?

Lizzie: I think it’s tricky, and we’re working on this at the moment because often, it’s quite piecemeal by organisations and what support they can provide to staff depending, for example, if they’re a trainee, they have the Royal College involved, they have the Education Board. There’s lots of different players, so it’s quite hard to have an approach that suits everyone and is individualistic. But I think it’s about we’ve talked about providing a supportive working environment that if something bad does happen, that staff are encouraged to adapt and are aware that this happens, and this is an occupational hazard.

Then, if something does happen, which as that is probably likely to happen to all of us at some point in our careers is that organisations are able to provide quick and appropriate responses to supporting staff and tailor that to an individual, whether it’s offering them the space to talk with a peer, whether it’s offering them counselling. For some people, it might be a period of time off work, and for others, it might be that they need to stay in work and have something else to concentrate on. I think it’s really hard to pin down but I think it needs to be done on an individual to individual basis.

Rachel: How important do you think is that whole counselling-type professional debrief of the incident?

Lizzie: Some of the work we’re doing at the moment, actually, we’re finding not that important. We’re finding actually that if you get things right in creating a supportive working environment, whether that be having Schwartz rounds where senior leaders talk about when they’ve made a mistake or having that peer support network. We talked about having those relationships between one another, which, I think, COVID has somewhat not helped with, in the fact that we can’t have those personal connections sometimes with staff.

I think if you get that right, then going on, if someone is involved in a patient safety incident, then hopefully, they won’t need the counselling or the more individualised responses. But it’s hard to measure, isn’t it, all these relationships and treatment of staff and culture. It’s a really, really muddy world.

Rachel: Caraline, looking back, what would have been helpful to you?

Caraline: I think the thing that Lizzie was saying about peer support would have been the most helpful because although my trainer and practice were really supportive, I was just too ashamed to tell them what I was thinking and that I was struggling. Every time anybody asked me how I was, I just said I was fine.

Part of that as well was because I felt the thoughts were so distressing, I didn’t really want to think about what was going on. I think if I had somebody who was slightly removed but in the same profession, so through that peer support, just to be able to share my experiences and for them to share theirs as well and to help normalise it and just to let you talk and let you explore your thoughts, a little bit like in coaching, and to sort of really unpick what was going on.

Because the thing that’s really helped me has been sharing and hearing other people’s experiences and also how grateful they are that somebody’s talking about it and that realisation that there are other people who have felt exactly the same.

Rachel: Someone you could have just phoned up and say, ‘This thing has happened. I just need to chat. Can we go for a drink? Can we go for a chat?’ Would you think it would have sort of de-escalated in your mind and process it a bit differently?

Caraline: Yeah, perhaps. And I think that’s probably an individual thing but I think because in this situation, I felt like it was so intrinsic. I wouldn’t have been able to find somebody that was a friend to talk to them about it. But had there been sort of a peer support network through sort of the scenery, that would have been useful to talk to somebody in a similar situation but that’s a little bit removed.

Rachel: Just sort of struck by the fact that at the time, you were in a training practice, you had a trainer who sort of heard about it, checked things, broke the news to you, and hopefully, to the best way possible, he reassured you. You’re able to talk to your TP. All those sorts of things, they were in place.

I’m just conscious that there are other doctors that this happens to a lot who aren’t trainees anymore. They might be consultants, they might be GPs, they might be the senior partner in their practice and sort of they’re running the show and they might just not have that buffer of people. Lizzie, does the second victim thing, does it change with experience? Is there any evidence that you get more used to dealing with it or is it just as bad?

Lizzie: There’s no evidence to support either way with that but I think I was listening to someone talk the other day saying that they had spoken with a consultant who was three months away from retirement and had never had a patient safety incident in their career. They’d been a consultant for nearly 20 years, and then, something happened just as they were kind of looking towards retirement and it hit them just as bad as it hit the junior doctor. It was their first mistake. It’s very individual, isn’t it, how everyone copes with these types of incidents.

Rachel: You may not have that sort of immediate support. You might be the one giving support to other people, then suddenly, you need it and then, it might be even more difficult to ask for help if you’re the person usually who’s helping them. As I can imagine, it would be really, really quite tricky.

Like Caraline says, I think it’s that peer support that’s so lacking sometimes, that being able to just debrief with, either formally or informally, with colleagues who have got your back and who you like and who you trust. I guess that’s the importance of building trust within teams and informal connections within the workplace and things like that.

I’m also interested in how we support other people with this. Caraline, you said you phoned your mum, and her response actually made you feel worse, and I’m sure she obviously didn’t mean that. She was just being honest. She hadn’t ever come across that. What can people do when people do tell them things, that someone can come to you and express what had just happened? What’s the most helpful thing that would have been helpful for you at the time?

Caraline: I think the whole just listening. Anybody who’s had sort of experience of coaching, Nancy Kline’s concept of listening with fascination, just letting them talk, explaining even if you’ve not felt like that yourself and that you know how common it is and you know that lots of people feel that way to help normalise it. Just let people talk, and let people explain how they feel and explore what’s going on for them.

Rachel: There’s nothing really possible that you can actually say that’s going to make it better but actually, that just being there and listening and the empathy can be really helpful.

Caraline: Yeah, because like you said, everyone said to me, ‘Well, it’s not your fault. You’re not to blame.’ As if that sort of makes it okay because I think that we, as healthcare professionals, we want to know what went on, was it my fault? But that doesn’t change that you feel responsible.

Rachel: The feelings often outweigh thinking, don’t they? They trump thinking no matter how irrational they might be.

Lizzie, we talked about the importance of workplace stuff but I’m sort of quite interested in, as individuals, what can we do to prevent this or almost sort of catch ourselves in the moment or flag up, this might be a risk factor, a red flag for a second victim situation? Is there anything that might just flag up to us when it might be one of those situations for either ourselves or our colleagues?

Lizzie: I think it’s tricky. I think just we all need to be aware ourselves of what the second victim is and how that might affect our colleagues differently. So just by raising awareness and talking about these types of feelings and the reactions to being involved in events, as Caraline said.

Not normalising the fact that something has gone wrong but normalising the fact that we’re talking about something like this and that it does happen to us all and I think, as Caraline has shared, being vulnerable and allowing others to see that so that if something does happen to them, they might talk to you about it. You might not be able to help them even by just listening but you might be able to point them in the right direction and say, ‘Oh, actually, have you considered that you might need some extra support other than just talking?’ And just knowing that there is that…

Rachel: I’m just wondering, what should you do if you spot someone? Do you think actually they are really suffering from the second victimhood right now to pointing them to some support? Is there anything else you can do there?

Lizzie: It’s tricky, isn’t it? I don’t know how you would feel. I would feel if someone came up to me and I thought that they commented that they thought I was maybe struggling, that might seem as a bit of a personal attack on me, and I would feel ashamed, and that could just all add up to the whole feeling of second victim. I think it’s a hard one, I think you just got to be really individual but just know that it’s out there.

Rachel: Caraline, what would have helped, when you were sort of in that place where you were withdrawn and not talking to people and whatever, what could someone had done to sort of break in there and support you?

Caraline: I think if somebody had shared a similar experience with me. And I would have been able to identify a little bit within that actually, this is very common, and I’m not the only person that felt like this, which is one of the reasons why I thought it was so important to come on and do this podcast with Lizzie to share all of her learning and knowledge. Because I just think all you have to do is hear one story that sticks in your head.

Rachel: That really strikes me, that what you’re not wanting is someone to come along and say to you, ‘Not your fault. It’s going to be okay. Don’t worry.’ What you wanted was someone’s come along and go, ‘That’s really crap. I’ve been through that as well. We all go through it. It’s an occupational hazard.’ It’s the listening and the empathy rather than just trying to fix it. How long did you think it took you to sort of come out of it and feel like you were recovering?

Caraline: I think I probably had about six months when it really affected me, and then probably sort of another six to twelve months after that when it would raise its head in different circumstances. Then, I finally plucked up the courage to share with the other fellows in the Future Leaders Program because that’s such a supportive, safe environment, and that was really helpful.

All the messages that I got from people really sort of helped put it to bed in a way, not that I don’t still think about it and sometimes, things trigger it. But now, I’m aware of what’s going on and I can stop and think because I have a lot more insight now.

Rachel: I’m sort of quite interested from you, Caraline and Lizzie, with your work. What do you really think people need to know, and what message would you like to get out there about the second victim?

Lizzie: That’s a really good question, Rachel. I think I’m repeating myself, but just knowing that it’s there, and I think being able to share your story, you might see that as being vulnerable but actually, people really value. And that ability to connect and talk things through is better than kind of any support or counselling that’s on offer, just having one on another, talk things through with. I think that’s what strikes with me. It’s all about the relationships at the end of the day.

Rachel: Yeah, but we’re not so good at doing that. I think as professionals, we don’t like to admit when we’ve made mistakes or whatever but personally, when I’ve heard about other people’s journeys and what’s happened to them, it’s just sort of ‘It’s okay. That’s okay. It’s okay.’ It sort of giving you permission not to do shoddy work but to forgive yourself realise that this is an occupational hazard, as we said in another podcast on complaints.

Someone was saying they teach their medical students to say, ‘I am going to make mistakes and some of them will be serious and then maybe a second. And that’s okay because actually, we’re human beings, aren’t we, at the end of the day.’

Caraline, what message would you really like to get out there if you could?

Caraline: Similar to Lizzie, but I think just talk to somebody and if you feel like you’re too ashamed to talk to anybody, that there will be somebody. Everybody has a defence organisation and actually, you don’t have to have made an error to talk to them. They’re there to support you. There’s already always somebody that you can talk to, and it and it will help.

Rachel: In a second, I’m going to ask you for your three top tips just to sort of put this to bed. I just quickly want to touch on COVID because we talked about this fact earlier, that COVID has changed everything, and there are probably lots of different incidents happening during COVID. Lizzie, have you guys seen a change in the sort of second victim stuff that you’re seeing as a result of COVID?

Lizzie: I think not as a result of COVID itself, but I think the fact that we’re all removed from one another, a lot of us are working remotely, you don’t have the time to create those connections with people. I think, as Caraline says though, you can actually create safe spaces online or on Zoom, whether it be on teams, for people to share but you just need to put a bit more into it. I think COVID has a lot of negatives, but it can bring people closer together as well.

Rachel: Reflecting on that, I actually think that sometimes, it’s easier to share things in a sort of Zoom room than it is when you’re face to face. Certainly, with busy professionals who just don’t have the time to be able to jump on an hour over an interacting virtual meeting in an evening. It’s a lot easier than having to travel to find a venue or sit in someone’s front room. You can do it, and it does seem quite a safe space. So I think we probably need to start utilising that a bit more.

I know Caraline mentioned earlier, it would have been great if there was an official peer support network had been set up but actually, that’s something we can do for ourselves. Find out who your mates are around, find out who are people in similar situations, similar times of life, actually form a group that you just meet up either just for drinks, or just to chat, or to just do some case review, or share things that have gone on. I bumped into someone, I think lead managed thrive courses.

It was before COVID, actually and he was there was a GP so I’m just about to go on my yearly weekend with my young practitioners’ group. He said, “We’ve been doing 40 years. It’s brilliant.” He said it was what had kept him going, because there were people that got him that he knew if he had any issue at any point, he would just be able to phone up and have them then.

Sometimes, it’s actually taking that step and doing that for ourselves rather than waiting for it to be set up and people move into new areas and stuff. Sort of, find your tribe, find the people that are really going to get you and you’re going to be able to talk to. We’re very nearly out of time.

Caraline, let’s come to you. What would you be your three top tips for people?

Caraline: I think, firstly would be just to bear second victim in mind, just have it in your head. Say that if something happens and you identify with that yourself or you see it in others, just say that you can be there to offer the support or get that support yourself. Secondly, I would say just like you’ve been saying, have that support network there, whether it’s one person or a group of people, have people that you feel truly safe to share those things with and be there for them as well when they need to do the same. Then thirdly, be kind to yourself and be kind to the colleagues that you work with. We’ll all make mistakes, we’ll have bad things that happen and just be nice to each other. Be nice to yourself.

Rachel: Yeah, be kind, definitely to your colleagues, and even more to yourself. Because that’s what we do, it can be quite atrocious, can we? You’d never speak to your best friend, the way we speak to ourselves. Thank you and what about you, Lizzie?

Dr Lizzie: On a similar theme, really, I think the importance of having a supportive and working environment so those relationships and connections between one another. I think, as Caraline just mentioned, the importance of being kind to one another and ourselves, I think, maybe some of the importance behind that has been lost recently and it’s kind of trotted out is something that we should all be doing but we need to be kind to all of us ourselves, especially in the current climate. Then, I think it’s often about the shared experiences and the shared learning that we can take from these things and not being afraid to share.

Rachel: I think it’s a very brave, courageous thing that you can do that will help so many people. Lizzie, the work that you’re doing, where are you sort of hoping it’s going to end up or lead to?

Lizzie: We have a website at secondvictim.co.uk, which is regularly updated with the literature and kind of real-life case studies of how things work in practice. It’s for individuals that think they might have second victim. It’s for managers that are looking after people that might have been involved in incidents. It does have some stuff stories on there, and then, we’re leading a wider piece of work on just culture, which is a whole other topic in itself but we have a network in Yorkshire and Humber where we bring work from this with the Yorkshire Quality and Safety Research Group that we can share to lots of organisations.

Rachel: What sort of training do you think people need to have in this sort of stuff?

Lizzie: I think training would be the wrong word because I think that would suggest it was like a tick box exercise. Once you’ve done your training, you’re competent and…

Rachel: Boom, right. Send those second victims in. Is there anything more about that, any more?

Lizzie: Yeah, but I think we just need to emphasise the importance of those relationships and connectedness amongst all of us and that’s hard to do.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah and just culture and relationships, topic for a completely separate podcast. In fact, we have just released one on relational abuse in the workplace and we’ve done quite a few about speaking up and it all adds into that, doesn’t it? I think I would just say at the end of this, we’ve been talking about having a supportive working environment, that there are not always things we can do to massively change that but the one thing we can do is be vulnerable ourselves, get to know people on a personal level, just by having coffee, having lunch, chatting away, sharing your own experiences.

If you can start to change that just individual by individual, then, you’re going to start to affect the culture where you work. Everybody, go find your tribe, make sure you’re connecting with people regularly, make sure you’re recognising if you’ve been a second victim in an incident or something that’s gone on and reach out and get the help you need. There are professional organisations out there who can help. There’s practitioner health. There are a lot of counselling and coaching and support out there so please, please don’t go it alone. Do reach out and talk to people.

Thank you, girls, so much for being on the podcast. It’s been fascinating, and just thank you for reaching out and suggesting this as a topic as well.

Caraline: Thank you.

Rachel: I’d love you to come back and share your findings in the future about what’s happening and maybe we should do another one about just culture and more relationships in the workplace. Watch this space. See you soon, thank you.

Caraline: Thank you.

Lizzie: Thank you, thank you.

Rachel: Thanks for listening. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, then please share it with your friends and colleagues. Please subscribe to my You Are Not A Frog email list and subscribe to the podcast and if you have enjoyed it, then please leave me a rating wherever you listen to your podcasts. Keep well, everyone. You’re doing a great job. You got this.

Podcast links

Free Webinar: How to build a robust team in times of crisis without burning out yourself

Check out the Permission to Thrive CPD membership for doctors

Sign up now for the Shapes Toolkit Programs to help you take control of your workload, feel better, and beat burnout.

Check out this You Are Not A Frog episode:

Check out the Complaints and How to Survive Them Series!

Second Victim Support

Improvement Academy

Yorkshire Quality and Safety Research Group

Connect with Lizzie: Twitter

Connect with Caraline: Twitter

For more updates and episodes, visit the You Are Not A Frog website.

You can also tune in on Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Sign up here to receive a link to the episode workbook and CPD form downloads for each podcast. You can use them for reflection and to submit for your appraisal.

You can also join the Shapes Collective Facebook group where we chat about the hot topics and regularly post interesting articles. Have any questions?

Contact Rachel through these platforms:

LinkedIn: @Dr-Rachel-Morris

Twitter: @DrRachelMorris

Email: rachel@wildmonday.co.uk

Find out more about our training here.

Here’s to surviving and thriving inside and outside our work!

Other Podcasts

Episode 171: How to Avoid Amygdala Hijack Part 2

Picking up where we left off, this quick dip episode dives into the last four factors of the SCARF Model. We learn more about tips and techniques that can help minimise threats and improves our response. Reward yourself and develop habits that can help you feel certain, in control, and supported even amidst all the stress. Learn how to better manage your stress and respond to difficult situations. Avoid an amygdala hijack when you listen to this episode!

Episode 170: How to Feel Happy, Calm, and Connected

Do you ever wish you could stop endlessly overthinking things you have no control over? Dr Giles P Croft is back on the podcast to discuss his experience of having a TIA that caused his left brain to stop functioning properly. We discuss how our thinking left brain often gets in the way of us staying in the present moment. We also lay down simple ways to get reacquainted with our right brain. Stay tuned to this episode to gain wisdom on how to live a happier, calmer, and connected life.

Episode 169: How to Avoid Amygdala Hijack Part 1

In this quick dip episode, we uncover the overarching principle of the amygdala. We discuss how to avoid an amygdala hijack and how not to operate from our threat zone. We have a choice around how we perceive and respond to triggers. We introduce the first principle of the SCARF Model and how to get over it. Learn how to minimise threats for yourself and others. If you want to know how to avoid an amygdala hijack, this episode is for you.

Episode 168: How to Do Something Different in Your Career

Episode 168: How to Do Something Different in Your Career Do you ever feel you’re just repeating the same routine every single day over and over again? Especially in healthcare, feeling stagnant and bored can ultimately lead to burnout. As daunting as it may sound, challenging yourself to try something different can help prevent this. Who knows, you might even discover a newfound passion that can also be profitable in the long run.Jo Watkins, co-founder of The HOW People, joins us to explore entrepreneurial possibilities for medical professionals without leaving their day jobs. We talk about what holds us back from pursuing a business idea and how you can get started on this journey. We also discuss honing the transferable skills you already have to discover what you’d like to try.Stay tuned to this episode if you want to start doing something different in your life and career. Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover your ‘why’ in life and business. Understand why you learn most by failing. Recognise and hone your transferable skills as a professional and entrepreneur. Episode Highlights [04:50] The Beginning of Jo’s Entrepreneurial Career Jo followed a very traditional path from medical school. She moved to South Wales for a lifestyle change when she met her partner. There, she was able to attain long-term locum practice and move into a part-time partnership. She realised she enjoyed mixing things up early in her partnership. Starting a practice website led her on an entrepreneurial path. Jo started making homemade granola after getting introduced to her cousin’s granola recipe in Canada. Before she knew it, she was selling her granola all around the country. [07:56] Worrying about the Unknown in Business Even at the heyday of her granola business, she still thought she had so much to learn. After acquiring a new skill, it’s all about getting out there and marketing it to people. Having a business involves being uncomfortable and taking steps you couldn’t imagine yourself taking previously. Within a typical clinic day, there are a lot of moments where you are making a real difference. In business, you can have days on end where it seems like you’re not getting anywhere. Tune in to the full episode to learn the secret ingredient for good granola! [10:56] Honing the Skills Within Be more

Episode 166: Are You Ok?

When was the last time you asked yourself, 'How am I?' and took the time to really sit with yourself? If you don't feel ok — that's ok.

Episode 161: The Problem with Boundaries

Boundaries help you stay healthy and sane — so why do we let them crumble? Find out how to maintain your boundaries with power language so you can thrive at work and home.

Episode 160: How to Avoid Burnout on Repeat

Dr Claire Ashley joins us in this episode to discuss the common occurrence of burnout and what we can do to avoid it. You have the option and the permission not to burn out. Tune in to this episode to find out how.

Episode 150: How to Get People To LOVE your Ideas with Toby Moore

Toby Moore joins us in this episode to share communication techniques that can convince the people around you to change. He shares his insights and advice that can improve how you speak to people, whether to an audience of hundreds, a sceptical team, or to a key decision maker or colleague. Want to learn the best communication strategies to convince others to change? Tune in to this episode.

Episode 143: Is It ‘Normal’ Not to Cope?

When you’re burning out, stop blaming yourself and start being compassionate. If you want to know how to cope with stress and burnout in the normal and human way, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 142: How to Stop Your Finances Controlling Your Career

Dr Tommy Perkins joins us for a conversation about money and career. We talk about why people make unusual financial decisions and what motivates a person to spend. Find out how you can make the changes you need in your life without worrying about money when you tune in to this episode.

Episode 141: You Choose

You might feel your obligations box you in. But the truth is, you make a choice whenever you act — even if it seems you have no choice at all.

Episode 140: How To Stop Emotional Eating, Eat Better and Feel Better with Dr Matthea Rentea and Keri Williams

Keri Williams and Dr Matthea Rentea talked about the causes of emotional hunger and how it affects our mood and hormones. They also discussed their inspiring weight loss journey and explained why diets don't always work. Finally, they imparted tried-and-true advice on how to stop emotional eating. Don't miss out on this episode if you're looking for the most practical ways to manage binge eating and experience consistent weight loss!

Episode 138: How to Balance Life and Work

Dr. Claire Kaye joins us in this episode to discuss why we should never aim for work-life balance, and why you should aim for life balance. If you want to learn how to do a life audit to work out your priorities, this episode is for you.

Episode 137: Shark Music

If you're not careful, the assumptions you make can turn your thoughts into a spiral of dread. Don't listen to the shark music!

Episode 134: How to Tell People What They Don’t Want to Hear

No one wants to hear a no from other people. However, for many professionals, knowing how to say no and maintaining your boundaries is a must. Jane Gunn joins us once again to talk about how you can say a clear no. Stay tuned to learn how you can say no in the best possible way.

Episode 133: But Is It A Tiger?

Are the things that annoy you in your daily life causing frustration, irritation, and bad moods? Learn how to stay calm in the face of irritations, shake off disruptions and make better decisions even in the heat of the moment.

Summer Replay 2022 Episode 3 – How to Break Up With Your Toxic Relationship With Your Career with Dr Pauline Morris

Dr Pauline Morris joins us to share her career counselling advice for physicians and other professionals in high stress jobs. We discuss the common pitfalls that lead doctors to unsustainable work habits. Pauline also sheds light on why staying in your comfort zone can be detrimental to your performance. To avert this, she shares tips on how to better recognise and advocate for your own needs. We also learn about the importance of self-care and taking time for yourself.

Summer Replay 2022 Episode 2 – Should I stay or should I go? with Corrina Gordon-Barnes

Corrina Gordon-Barnes joins us to share how to better relationships and take control and stay in your zone of power. She shares how to make a good decision by questioning thoughts and assumptions. We also discuss how you can change your perspective to become more compassionate, accepting, and empowered. If you want to know how to better relationships, stay in your zone of power, improve your decision-making skills, and be true to yourself, then tune in to this episode!

Episode 131: What To Do If You’re Stressed AND Bored

Rachel discusses how to address and navigate the toxic combination of stress and boredom in the workplace. She talks about the role of learning in living a good, meaningful, and self-actualised life. Rachel also lays down five ways that will enable you to fit learning into your schedule without increasing the chances of burning out.

Episode 130: How to Say F**k It and Become Ridiculously Relaxed (Even about Stuff That REALLY Matters) with John C. Parkin

John C. Parkin joins us today and encourages us to say ‘fuck it’ more in our lives! Not everything is important, and sometimes we try too hard living up to society’s excessive expectations. John shares how overcoming stress and setting boundaries often results in overthinking and feelings of guilty. He wants us to calm down and breathe! Let’s learn to finally prioritise relaxation in our lives and see how much better we become through it. If you’re struggling with stress and want to know how to calm down and let go of what you can’t control, then this episode is for you.

Episode 127: After Burnout: Going Back to Work with Dr Katya Miles

When major issues occur in your life, it’s often necessary to take a break and deal with them, and of course, there’s also the other reasons we take significant time off work - maternity or parental leave, taking a sabbatical or taking a career break. If you want to know how to go back to work thriving, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 126: Using Nature to Answer Your Big Questions With Henri Stevenson

Henri Stevenson joins us to talk about the ways connecting with nature can shift our thinking and open up new solutions. We discuss the differences in our thoughts and feelings when we're in nature versus within artificial walls. She shares her stories of finding metaphors for life situations reflected in nature and what she learned from them. Henri reminds us that sometimes, the solutions to our problems may show up in quiet spaces when we take a few moments to connect with nature. Curious about how to take time to learn and connect with nature? Learn how and much more when you tune into this episode!

Episode 125: How to Say No and Deal with Pushback with Annie Hanekom

Everyone has difficulty enforcing their set boundaries, from top-end executives to junior employees. Logically, we know that we cannot do everything people want, but biologically, our minds are hardwired to please people. In this episode of You Are Not a Frog, Annie Hanekom guides you through how to say no and deal with the inevitable pushback.

Episode 124: How to Change When Change is Scary with Dr Claire Kaye

Change can definitely be scary. However, it doesn’t always have to be a difficult experience. Dr Claire Kaye joins us in this episode to talk about how you can approach change proactively. Whether you dislike change or thrive on it, her insights and enlightening tips will help you make the most of the opportunities in your life. Are you undergoing a difficult change right now? Learn more about how to change even when change is scary in this episode of You Are Not a Frog.

Episode 123: How to Live With No Regrets with Georgina Scull

Georgina Scull joins us in this episode to talk about what she learned from writing the book, Regrets of the Dying: Stories and Wisdom That Remind Us How to Live. She shares three revelations that people have while on their deathbeds: not being able to make other people happy, living up to other people’s expectations, and trying to rewrite history. We walk you through practical steps to help you reflect on your true desires so you can live a meaningful life.

Episode 122: How to be Happy at Work with Sarah Metcalfe

Joining us to talk about the importance of happiness in the workplace - and how we can find it - is Sarah Metcalfe. The founder of Happiness Coffee Consulting, she shares her top tips on simple things you can do to pursue happiness and share it with others. Even in high-stress jobs, it’s possible to choose happiness and spread it. And the results can be extraordinary. If you want to learn more about how and why we should be happy at work, tune in to this episode.

Episode 121: How To Be A Happy Working Parent with Corrina Gordon-Barnes

Corrina Gordon-Barnes joins us to discuss the common struggles of working parents and the things we need to unlearn. She shares how to take radical responsibility as a parent and delegate responsibilities from housework to emotional load. We also teach you how to stay in your zone of genius and accept help when you need it. It’s time to live a life you love and enjoy, even amidst all your responsibilities! If you’re struggling to balance work and parenting, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 120: Making Online Meetings Work with John Monks

John Monks joins us in this episode to discuss designing better online meetings and interactions. We clarify the difference between a meeting, a presentation, and a workshop. We also discuss creative ways to design online meetings that energise and infuse rather than drain and demotivate. And John shares some simple exercises on limits and boundaries that can radically improve our problem solving and creativity. If you want to know how to make the most out of online meetings, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 118: How to Manage Upwards (and Sideways) with Dr Claire Edwin and Dr Keerthini Muthuswamy

Dr Claire Edwin and Dr Keerthini Muthuswamy talk about their experiences working within a hierarchical system as junior doctors and share what they have found to be essential if you want to build trust and foster good relationships with your seniors, your juniors and your peers. If you want to know how you can build trust and influence your workplace, and manage upwards and sideways this episode is just for you!

Episode 116: What I Got So Wrong About Mindfulness And How It Might Transform Your Life with Dr Steve Pratt

Dr Steve Pratt joins us to discuss what we really mean by mindfulness, and how it could work for you. He'll debunk some of the myths of mindfulness and how you can make it worth your time and effort. We'll discuss how certain techniques can help us live happier, be less anxious, and harness our resources to make better decisions. Finally, Steve shares his mindfulness practices and takes us on a quick three-minute breathing exercise! If you want to learn about mindfulness, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 114: How to Get an Appraisal that Doesn’t Suck with Dr Susi Caesar

Dr Susi Caesar joins us to talk about how you can elevate and enjoy your professional life with annual appraisals. She shares the purpose of appraisals and how they can help you choose the best way forward in your career and personal life. Dr Susi also gives her top tips on what you can do to make this process more meaningful. If you want to know more about appraisals and how you can benefit from them, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 113: What To Do When A Junior Is Badmouthing Your Colleagues with Dr Ed Pooley

Dr Ed Pooley joins us in this episode to discuss what we should do when we see inappropriate behaviour like badmouthing. He shares how we can manage difficult conversations with the intent of helping others. We also discuss the importance of recognising triggers through the SCARF model. If you want to know how to deal with difficult conversations for a better workplace, listen to this episode.

Episode 112: Why We’re Ditching the Term ‘Imposter Syndrome’ with Dr Sarah Goulding

Dr Sarah Goulding joins us to talk about imposter syndrome and why we need to drop the word from our vocabularies. We also discuss how self doubt can be helpful to us. Finally, she shares tips for overcoming wobbles and incorporating more self-compassion into your life. If you want to get over your imposter syndrome and practice self-compassion, then this episode is for you!

Episode 111: What To Do When You Start To See Red with Graham Lee

Graham Lee joins us to discuss our emotional states and ways to apply simple mindfulness techniques to change them. Most conflicts are rooted in unmet needs. When we admit those needs, we can instantly change relationship dynamics. Graham also shares tips on what to do during stressful situations where your emotions cloud your judgement and thinking. If you want to use mindfulness practice to be more aware of your emotions even during difficult situations, tune in to this episode.

Episode 110: How To Stop People Pleasing And Absorbing Other People’s Angst

Dr Karen Forshaw and Chrissie Mowbray join us to discuss how our core beliefs shape the way we respond to situations. When taken too far, empathy and helping people can be a big cause of stress. In addition, we also talk about we can learn to reframe and reassess their core beliefs. If you want to know how to help people without absorbing their emotions, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 109: Is It Possible To Have Fun At Work? With Dr Kathryn Owler

Dr Kathryn Owler joins us in this episode to share her fascinating research on the characteristics and traits of people who enjoy their current jobs. We dissect the common themes these people have in finding success in their careers. And we also talk about changes we can implement as individuals to make work more fun and enjoyable. If you want to start adopting the mindset people who have fun at work have, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 108: What We Wish We’d Learnt at Med School with Dr Ed Pooley & Dr Hussain Gandhi

Dr Ed Pooley and Dr Hussain Gandhi join us in the latest episode of You are Not a Frog. They discuss the management skills a doctor needs that you won't learn in med school, plus tips to help fresh doctors feel empowered in their workplace. Whether or not you work in medicine, these skills are crucial when it comes to working effectively and managing your own and others’ time. Tune in and listen to the experts talk about the management skills med school doesn't teach you and how to learn and develop them today.

Episode 107: Define Your Own Success In Life With Dr Claire Kaye

Dr Claire Kaye joins us to talk about the importance of honesty and clarity in defining our own success. We may think that achieving certain goals will make us happy, but evidence shows us it’s the other way around. It’s only when we’re happy that we can be successful. We also discuss how to overcome common barriers to our happiness and success such as fear, guilt, and uncertainty. If you want to know how to live a happier and more successful life, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 105: The Simplest Way to Beat Stress and Work Happier with Dr Giles P. Croft

In this episode, Dr Giles P. Croft joins us to discuss how our thoughts and emotions trigger stress signals. He shares his controversial approach to tackling stress, and why most of our efforts to cope better don’t really help at all. We also delve into the importance of pausing to allow yourself to calm down and letting go of the things you can’t control.

Episode 104: How to Cope With Nightmare Relatives and Colleagues Without Losing the Plot

In this special Christmas episode, Corrina Gordon-Barnes shows us how to create the groundwork for a peaceful and successful holiday season, even while navigating difficult relationships with relatives or colleagues. Corrina guides us to relax our expectation of a perfect holiday with our family, so we can face reality in ourselves and others. She explains a simple framework to allow you to resolve conflict, and walks us through what we can do during difficult gatherings and how to shift our responses to create different outcomes. Tune in to improve your strained relationships with relatives and co-workers through empathy and letting go of past assumptions.

Episode 103: How Not to Settle For The Way It’s Always Been Done

Dr Abdullah Albeyatti talks about improving your life and career by making changes and taking risks. He explains why settling for the familiar could be slowly ruining your life and how you can avoid this situation. Finally, he shares his top three tips to become a changemaker in your field. If you want to start doing things differently, creating change, and take more risks, then this episode is for you!

Episode 102: Why FAIL is Not a 4-Letter Word

Drs Claire Edwin, Sally Ross, and Taj Hassan join us to discuss how we can manage and deal with our failures more effectively. We explore the idea that rather than doing something wrong, failure is an opportunity to really grow and learn both as individuals, as leaders and as organisations. In any situation, it’s important to remember that we’re all human. It’s okay to be honest with ourselves and each other about our mistakes - after all, vulnerability is not a sign of weakness. If you want to know how to change your mindset around failure, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 101: Making Helpful Habits Stick with Sheela Hobden

Sheela Hobden joins us to discuss how we can harness the power of checklists to create a routine. She shares how you can approach your goals in a more realistic way and learn to encourage yourself using specific goal setting techniques. Sheela also recommends creating identity-based goals to ensure that you keep building your new identity even after completing certain milestones. Start small, and eventually, you’ll see these good habits stick!

Episode 100: Dealing With the Guilt of Not Being Okay With Dr Nik Kendrew

Dr Nik Kendrew unravels why we experience overwhelming guilt when bad things happen to us. He also shares some tips, techniques, and resources on how to deal with guilt, especially in these difficult times and circumstances. Apart from this, Nik talks about the significance of scheduling our entire day to do important things. Finally, he discusses why setting boundaries is necessary to maintain our sense of self.

Episode 99: How to Deal with Criticism When You’ve Reached Your Limit with Dr Sarah Coope and Dr Rachel Morris

Dr Sarah Coope joins me to talk about the workload of medical professionals and the benefits of setting boundaries while dealing with criticisms amidst the global pandemic. We discuss the three elements of the Drama Triangle and ways to navigate or avoid them reliably. As we dive deeper into the conversation, we explore the art of saying 'No' through acknowledging our limits. Awareness and recognition can go a long way in maintaining our boundaries. If you want to take the first step in recognising your limits, handling criticism better and setting proper boundaries, tune in to this episode.

Episode 96 – How to Deal with Difficult Meetings with Jane Gunn

We hear from the expert in conflict management and mediation, Jane Gunn. She discusses important tips to keep in mind to host great meetings. She shares some practical conflict management tips and how to make decisions that you and your team agree on. Jane also emphasises the importance of putting the fun back in functional meetings and the need to give a voice to participants.

Episode 93 – How to Delegate, Do It, or Drop It with Anna Dearmon Kornick

Anna Dearmon Kornick joins us to share the time management strategies crucial for busy professionals. She lays down tips on how medical practitioners can have more control over their days. Anna talks about how to manage admin time and imparts ways to combat distractions. We also discuss the importance of delegation both inside and outside work. For this, Anna introduces the passion-proficiency lens and knowing your zone of genius.

Episode 92 – How to Avoid Becoming the Second Victim with Dr Caraline Wright & Dr Lizzie Sweeting

Dr Caraline Wright and Dr Lizzie Sweeting join us to discuss the second victim phenomenon. They explain why patient safety incidents are occupational hazards and how they can affect healthcare providers. Caraline then shares her personal experience of being in the “second victim” role. Finally, they share tips on how to avoid second victimhood and how to provide support to someone going through it.

Episode 91 – How to Break Up With Your Toxic Relationship With Your Career with Dr Pauline Morris

Dr Pauline Morris joins us to share her career counselling advice for physicians and other professionals in high stress jobs. We discuss the common pitfalls that lead doctors to unsustainable work habits. Pauline also sheds light on why staying in your comfort zone can be detrimental to your performance. To avert this, she shares tips on how to better recognise and advocate for your own needs. We also learn about the importance of self-care and taking time for yourself.

Episode 90 – What to do About Bitching and Backbiting with Dr Edward Pooley

Dr Edward Pooley joins us again to discuss what to do when colleagues make inappropriate comments about others. We talk about why it’s crucial to consider the question behind the question in workplace backbiting. Ed also teaches us how to challenge in a supportive way. Most importantly, we learn some strategies to prepare ourselves to speak up when the situation requires it.

Episode 89 – Should I stay or should I go? with Corrina Gordon-Barnes

Corrina Gordon-Barnes joins us to share how to better relationships and take control and stay in your zone of power. She shares how to make a good decision by questioning thoughts and assumptions. We also discuss how you can change your perspective to become more compassionate, accepting, and empowered. If you want to know how to better relationships, stay in your zone of power, improve your decision-making skills, and be true to yourself, then tune in to this episode!

Episode 88 – How to Ditch the Saviour Complex and Feel More Alive with Rob Bell

Rob Bell joins us in this episode to discuss the perils of the saviour complex and the desire to keep hustling even when we’re miserable. We learn that taking time for rest and reflection only helps us get stronger. You can’t heal and help rebuild a broken system if you don’t look out for yourself first. Tune in to this episode to find out how to ditch the saviour complex, feel happier and live a more fulfilling life.

Episode 87 – Complaints and How to Survive Them Episode 5: What Should I Do When I Think a Complaint is Unfair? And Other Questions with Drs Sarah Coope, George Wright, Samantha White, and Andrew Tressider

We’re joined by a panel of expert guests to share their thoughts on how to handle complaints. Together, we discuss ways that you can adjust your perspective and respond to unfavourable situations. Most importantly, we tackle issues regarding malicious complaints and how to cope with them. If you’re having trouble managing yourself during complaints, then this episode is for you.

Episode 86 – Gaslighting and Other Ways We’re Abused at Work: What’s Really Going On? with Dr James Costello

Dr James Costello joins us to talk about his new book and the insidious ways that organisations and individuals can undermine us. They compel us to do extra emotional labour for us to cope with the workplace dynamics. We also chat about what happens when authority and power are misused. Finally, James shares some of the disastrous consequences bullying in the workplace can have and what we can do about it. Tune in if you want to know what to do if you suspect that you or a colleague are experiencing relational abuse in the workplace!

Episode 85 – How to have crucial conversations with Dr Edward Pooley

Good communication between colleagues is crucial for the success of any organisation. Dr Edward Pooley joins us again to teach us how to communicate well. He discusses the three strands present in any conversation and helps us understand how we can be more aware of each. We also share some frameworks that can help you navigate difficult conversations. Understanding the importance of emotion is crucial in being an effective communicator and connecting with your team.

Episode 84 – Complaints and How to Survive Them Episode 4: Creating a Workplace Where It’s OK to Fail

Professor Susan Fairley and Dr Jane Sturgess join us to discuss how to create a workplace that doesn’t shy away from failure. We talk about how civility can save lives and also touch on the issues around incident reporting in healthcare. Most importantly, we talk about creating a culture where people can have difficult conversations without defensiveness. If you want to know how to approach failing and speaking up in the workplace, tune in to this episode.

Episode 83 – The Ups and Downs of Being a Man-Frog with Dr Chris Hewitt

Joining us in this episode is Dr Chris Hewitt who also uses the metaphor of a man-frog in coaching professionals to have a better work-life balance. Chris talks about why we find it so hard to recognise burnout. He also shares his top tips and practical strategies to address work dissatisfaction. If you want to stop feeling like a man (or woman) - frog in a pan of slowly boiling water, listen to the full episode.

Episode 82 – Complaints and How to Survive Them Series Episode 3: Surviving the Process

Drs Jessica Harland, Caroline Walker and Heidi Mousney join us in this episode to discuss healthcare professionals’ experiences when dealing with complaints. We talk about the different emotions you may experience and practical tips on getting through. If you want to know how to survive the process after making a mistake at work and receiving a complaint, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 81 – When Soft and Fluffy Met Coronavirus with Steve Andrews

Steve Andrews, Associate Director of Leadership for East and North Herts NHS Trust shares how, through using just five crucial questions, you can check in on people, rather than check up on them. The 5 questions will help you to find out how people really are, help them look out for their colleagues, empower them to solve their own problems AND communicate empathy and support. Want to know how you can apply compassionate leadership in your organisation? Then, this episode is for you.

Episode 80 – Complaints and How to Survive Them Episode 2: What to Do When You Make a Mistake with Drs Clare Devlin and Dr John Powell

Drs Clare Devlin and John Powell join us to discuss the proper way of responding to professional mistakes. We talk about why doctors have a hard time whenever they make a mistake at work. Clare and John also share valuable advice on minimising negative consequences and getting a good outcome for you and your patient. If you want to learn a roadmap for what you should do you make a mistake at work, then tune in to this episode.

Episode 79 – How to Give Yourself Permission to Thrive with Dr Katya Miles

Dr Katya Miles joins us once again to talk about burnout and giving ourselves permission to thrive. Having experienced work burnout, Katya shares her story and discusses the red flags of burnout. We also talk about why we find it difficult to give ourselves permission to thrive and how we can overcome our own internal barriers. If you want to learn about how you can listen to your needs so that you can thrive in work and in life, then this episode is for you.

Episode 78 – Complaints and How to Survive Them Series 1: Preparing to Fail Well with Drs Sarah Coope, Annalene Weston and Sheila Bloomer

Drs Sarah Coope, Annalene Weston and Sheila Bloomer join us in this first episode in a new series on ‘Complaints and How to Survive Them’ to talk about coaching doctors and dentists through complaints made against them. We also talk about the perfectionist mindset and how changing our perspective towards failure can help us and those around us. If you want to know how to deal better with complaints made against doctors and other professionals in high-stress jobs, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 77 – Denial, displacement and other ways we neglect ourselves with Dr Andrew Tresidder

Dr Andrew Tresidder joins us to talk about how many medical practitioners and other professionals in healthcare and high stress jobs neglect their health and well-being. We're so focused on taking care of others that we forget to take care of ourselves but our well-being is vital if we want to keep doing the work we do. Find out why healthcare professionals need to learn more about health, as opposed to only learning about disease and if you want to know how to focus on taking care of your health and well-being, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 76 – Tech Tips for Happy Hybrid Working with Dr Hussain Gandhi

Dr Hussain Gandhi, or Dr Gandalf of eGPlearning, joins us in this episode. He is a GP, PCN director and host of the eGP Learning Podblast that shares deep dives into health tech for primary care. He shares his tech and time hacks for hybrid working to survive and thrive in the new virtual environment. If you want to find out how to improve your hybrid working experience, then tune in to this episode!

Episode 74 – Managing your Time in a System Which Sucks with Dr Ed Pooley

Dr Ed Pooley joins us in this episode to share his take on time management techniques for busy individuals. He discusses the three types of competing demands and how to manage them. We also talk about being more comfortable holding difficult conversations about workplace issues - vital to help change the environment we work in. Tune into this episode to discover how time management techniques and communication can help you get a calmer and more time-efficient workplace.

Episode 73 – How to Find Your Tribe: The PMGUK story with Dr Nazia Haider and Dr Katherine Hickman

Dr Nazia Haider and Dr Katherine Hickman join us on this episode to discuss the importance of a work community. We talk about the inspiring stories from the online community they created, the Physicians Mums Group UK (PMGUK). Nazia and Katherine also share their tips on how to increase connections and find your own tribe at work. If you want to know how to create a network of supportive colleagues and feel more connected, then tune into this episode.

Episode 72 – Working well – from anywhere! with Dr Katya Miles

Dr Katya Miles joins us to discuss how to work well from home by creating healthy boundaries. She shares how to be more productive by using the third space hack and taking breaks. Katya also talks about how to be more active and better connect with people in the workplace. If you want to learn about working well from home and achieving a better work-life balance, then tune in to this episode.

Episode 71 – Create a Career You’ll Love with Dr Claire Kaye

Dr Claire Kaye joins us to discuss how to find a career you love. As an executive coach specialising in career development, Claire is an expert in guiding people how to find a career they love. We talk about the value of job networking and diversifying in our career journeys. We also share our tips and experiences on how to find a career you love. We do this by helping you identify the roles that best suit you and how to go about getting these roles.

Episode 70 – How Safe Do You Feel at Work with Scott Chambers

Scott Chambers joins us to talk about why we need to make people feel comfortable and safe enough to speak up in their workplace. When we create psychological safety in our team, we improve overall happiness and boost performance! If you want to learn how to create psychological safety for a better and happier team - whether you’re the boss or not, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 69 – Make Time for What Matters with Liz O’Riordan

Liz O'Riordan joins us to share productivity life hacks. These have helped her transform how she approaches work. Now, Liz can spend quality time with her family and enjoy life. In this episode, she teaches us how we too can achieve this. If you want to learn some new life hacks, beat burnout and work happier, then tune in to this episode!

Episode 68 – The Revolutionary Art of Breathing with Richard Jamieson

Richard Jamieson discusses how we can utilise breathing techniques to feel calmer, make better decisions and be more productive. He explains the different steps we can take to change our breathing patterns. When you’re in a high-stress situation, remember this: just breathe. If you want to know how to use breathing techniques to beat stress in everyday situations, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 67 – Bringing Your Best Self to Work with Dr Sarah Goulding

Dr Sarah Goulding discusses how to bring your whole self to work without leaving bits of you behind. Sarah shares her own story of experiencing burnout at her old job and rediscovering her true passion. We also discuss how applying our core strengths to our jobs can mean the difference between burnout and having a sense of fulfilment. Don’t miss out on this episode if you want to learn more about how to be yourself and how to bring joy back into your work!

Episode 65 – Passing the Naughty Monkey Back with Dr Amit Sharma

Dr Amit Sharma joins us to discuss the effects of taking on too many of other people’s ‘naughty monkeys’. We talk about why professionals in high-stress jobs so often take on the rescuer role and how to shift that mindset. Amit and I also discuss the importance of empowering patients to take control of their own health. If you want to know how to avoid being weighed down by too many naughty monkeys, stay tuned to this episode.

Episode 64 – What to Do When You’re Out of Fuel with Dr Jess Harvey

Dr Jess Harvey, a GP partner and GB triathlete, talks about what happened to her after running out of fuel and feeling burnt out. She discusses how we often ignore the symptoms and signs for too long and why resting and refuelling is as important as what we're doing in the first place. If you’re feeling burnt out, tune in to this episode to find out how you can plug the holes in your energy bucket!

Episode 63 – How to Survive Even When Times are Tough with Dr Caroline Walker

This episode is part of the COVID-19 Supporting Doctors series, and joining us again is Dr Caroline Walker. She's here to discuss why rest is crucial, especially for people in high-stress jobs. Caroline also shares key strategies that can keep us going through the crisis. The previous year has been tough, so don’t miss this episode to start 2021 better prepared.

Episode 62 – Self-Coaching for Success with Dr Karen Castille, OBE

Dr Karen Castille joins me in this episode to discuss her book on self-coaching. She shares powerful questions to ask yourself which will jumpstart your self-coaching journey. She also talks about the importance of developing this vital skill and crafting powerful life questions. Before we close the show, Karen gives her top tips for self-coaching. Don’t miss this episode if you want to learn how you can find clarity and achieve success through self-coaching!

Episode 61 – The Self Help Book Group on Happiness with Dr Nik Kendrew

In this episode, You Are Not A Frog regular Dr Nik Kendrew joins me to discuss the concept of happiness. We tackle the everlasting question of ‘What is happiness’? We also talk about perfectionism and fear and how these can hinder us from doing the things we want to do. At the end of the show, Nik and I give our top tips to being happier. If you want to know more about living a happy life, then this episode is for you.

Episode 60 – Creating a Workplace that Works with Dr Sonali Kinra

Dr Sonali Kinra joins us to discuss why people leave their jobs and how to prevent it. We talk about the importance of workplace culture and its role in creating an environment that makes people want to stay. We also discuss why you need to seek opportunities that broaden and develop your career. Don’t miss this episode if you want to find out how to keep yourself in a job you love.

Episode 59 – A Social Dilemma? With Dr James Thambyrajah

In this episode, Dr James Thambyrajah joins us to talk about social media’s subtle yet profound effect on our daily lives. We discuss the perils of being unaware of how our online decisions are influenced. James also shares his insights on how we can improve how we stay informed and inform others. Tune in to this episode if you want to learn more about how to go beyond your digital echo chamber.

Episode 55 – The One About Alcohol

Dr Giles P Croft is back to chat with Rachel about his experiences following a revolutionary read he was recommended. You might remember Giles from episode 46, where he talked about how as humans, we naturally default to happiness.

Episode 52 – A year of the frog

The week’s episode is a special one as the Frog celebrates a year of podcasting! It’s been quite a year - including charting in Apple’s Top 100 Business Podcasts in the UK!

Episode 50 – Freeing yourself from the money trap

Joining Rachel in this week’s episode is Dr Tommy Perkins, as well as being a GP Partner, and father, Tommy is one half of Medics Money. Medics Money is an organisation specifically aimed at helping doctors make better decisions with their finances. It’s run by Tommy and Dr Ed Cantelo who is not only a doctor but a qualified accountant.

Episode 49 – The Self Help Book Group No 2 with Nik Kendrew

This week Rachel is joined by You Are Not A Frog regular, Nik Kendrew. Last time Nik joined us, we discussed a book that has helped him in his professional life as a GP, trainer and partner as well as his personal life. Nik’s back this week to talk about another brilliant book and to share what insights and learnings he’s gained from it.

Episode 47 – How to Have a Courageous Conversation

Rachel talks with Beccie D'Cunha about the conversations that we avoid and the conversations we really need to have with our colleagues, teams and managers. They can be described as difficult conversations, but we can redefine them as courageous conversations - because ultimately it takes courage for both parties to listen and be heard.

Episode 46 – Default to happy

Rachel talks with Dr Giles P Croft about his take on how to beat stress and burnout. Giles  is a psychology graduate and former NHS surgeon who stepped aside from clinical practice for a decade to explore a number of career paths, including health informatics, cycling journalism, public speaking and high street retail with his wife.

Episode 45 – Rest. The final frontier

Rachel is joined by Sheela Hobden, Professional Certified Coach, wellbeing expert and fellow Shapes Toolkit facilitator. We talk about why rest isn’t just important for wellbeing, but important for productivity and creativity too. 

Episode 40 – Leading with tough love with Gary Hughes

In this episode, Rachel is joined by Gary Hughes, author of the book Leadership in Practice, blogger, educator and facilitator who is a Practice Manager by day. We chat about how leadership in the COVID-19 crisis has had to adapt, and the different roles that a leader has had to take.

Episode 37 – How to manage conflict during COVID with Jane Gunn

Rachel is thrilled to welcome back Jane Gunn – lawyer, mediator and expert in conflict resolution who has been known as the Corporate Peacemaker. This episode is for you if the thought of addressing a difficult issue with one of your colleagues send you running for the hills…

Episode 20 – A creative solution to stress with Ruth Cocksedge

In this episode, Rachel is joined by Ruth Cocksedge a Practitioner Psychologist who started her career as a mental health nurse. She practices in Cambridge and has a particular interest in EMDR for PTSD and creative writing as a way to improve mental health and wellbeing.

Episode 11 – The magical art of reading sweary books

In this episode, Rachel is joined once again by Dr Liz O’Riordan, the ‘Breast Surgeon with Breast Cancer’, TEDx speaker, author, blogger, triathlete and all round superstar who has been nominated for ‘Woman of the Year’.

Previous Podcasts