Getting a Breakthrough by Using Your Right Brain

[00:00:00] Rachel: When we’re faced with a problem. our left brain kicks in immediately and tries to come up with a logical solution. But what happens when we’re faced with a problem that’s not so logical or doesn’t have a solution that can be puzzled out?

[00:00:13] If you work in the NHS, you’ll know what it’s like to struggle with problems without an obvious sedation. And if you’re leading a team who are looking to you for all the answers, what do you do when the right course of action isn’t staring you in the face?

[00:00:27] Now, this is where the right brain can be surprisingly helpful because it’s great at thinking visually and using metaphors to describe situations. So it can be shortcuts or working out what the real issue is and thinking differently about it.

[00:00:41] We can engage the creative parts of our brain to help us come up with novel ways of tackling problems and give us new ways of approaching the ones that we can’t solve. Executive coach Yda Bouvier has helped me with this approach in the past. She helped me visualize what’s. I really wanted out of my life and she was instrumental in helping me think differently about my work and my career.

[00:01:02] I want to share some of her with them, with you. So if you’ve been trying to unpick a knotty problem and getting nowhere, or if you’re near the end of your tether and can’t see a way forwards, my conversation with Yda will give you some practical advice that you can put into action today.

[00:01:18] If you’re in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you’re feeling stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options. I’m Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog.

[00:01:39] Yda: My name is Yda Bouvier. I’m an executive coach. What that means is that I work with individuals and with teams, uh, for most of my day. Um, I’ve been doing this for 15 years and, um, my professional career before that was the, was in strategy consulting. Um, and I’m a, a physicist by, uh, by education. And I guess all of those different things came together. when I wrote a book, uh, the last few years titled Leading with the Right Brain. You know, next to the profession professional bit. Um, I, uh, I live in the UK for 20 years, but as you hear, I am, uh, from the Netherlands. Um, and that all ones always leaves one with an orange heart.

[00:02:20] Rachel: It’s so good to have you on the podcast, Yda. Thank you so much for being here. And, uh, I’ve known you’ve How long for how long? Six, seven years now, I think?

[00:02:30] Yda: I was thinking about it too. I bet it’s at least that.

[00:02:33] Rachel: At least seven years. ’cause sort of full disclosure here and, and people will have heard me banging on about my own sort of journey and my career change and stuff and how I, I had some coaching which got me like, further ahead in like three to six months than it would’ve done in three to six years. And, and Yda was the person who was coaching me. So you are responsible for all of this.

[00:02:55] Thank you so much. And you know, it was really fascinating for me. It was the first time I had had coaching and actually it’s very apt with what we’re talking about today about the right brain, ’cause I still vividly remember our first coaching session, which was I got to, I think we met a, a, a restaurant above King’s Cross. And you just spread all these cards out in front of me with pictures on them and just got me to choose a couple of pictures. You know, one, what my life felt like right now. And then another one, what I’d like it to feel like in the future.

[00:03:27] And for me, just, I still remember what cards I chose and that was just the beginning of everything and it was the first massive shift that I made. And I’m presuming that’s quite a good example of what using your right brain and getting into your right brain can actually do.

[00:03:46] Yda: It is a brilliant example and, uh, it’s wonderful to hear that you still remember those, uh, those pictures. You see our, our right brain processes in visuals, uh, not in words. And so if we wanna activate the right brain, we always have to find a way to introduce a visual or images, uh, into a, into a conversation.

[00:04:06] And you might think, well, why is the right brain not active all the time anyway? Lots of reasons for that. But one of the simplest is that we tend to communicate with, with words. Some people use metaphors, but a lot of us don’t. And that means that when we are simply communicating with words, we’re predominantly processing through our left hemisphere.

[00:04:26] You know, the right brain is always active, but it’s just not so clearly involved. And when I’m working with, uh, coachees such as, uh, we started all those years ago, I always start by saying, Look, I wanna make sure that we make use of all the resources that we have both left and right, and so I often start with really bringing the right brain online with some images.

[00:04:49] And if we, it’s very funny that you mentioned that you remember them, uh, still today because I, I, I found that in a lot of my, um, with a lot of my coachees, but also for myself, had that, the moment you remember an image or, or a picture or a metaphor or an object from a conversation, the whole thing evolves, pops up again in your brain.

[00:05:10] Rachel: Yeah, I mean, it was so, it was so powerful for me and also showing me without having to put it into words, what the issue. It was just so useful to to, to see it in the picture. What does our right brain give us that our left brain doesn’t?

[00:05:28] Yda: See what your left hemisphere does really well, is that it looks at this, uh, enormous, Rich and complex world that we have around us, and it simplifies it. And by simplifying it, it makes it the world’s tangible to us. And it, and we can then also influence, manipulate and get things done. A very simple example is if I ask you where do you live? You’re going to tell me

[00:05:50] Rachel: Cambridge.

[00:05:51] Yda: Cambridge, and tell me your city of the country, city, maybe street, All of that very useful information for me to find you and for the postman to find you. Yet that information is a, is a sort of a simplified model of, not only the map and the world, but also of what the, where you live actually, because it doesn’t really describe me anything about your house and what, what living there is like for you. But if I ask you a different question and I say, um, what do I see when I stand in front of your house?

[00:06:23] Rachel: Red bricks, a park. some neighbors, some flowers, a big sky.

[00:06:31] Yda: Yeah. So you, when I do that, you, when I ask the question, you see this picture in front of you, of what your house is like, and you’re choosing a few things to tell me about it. It takes a little bit longer because you have to choose, because actually there’s a lot of information all of a sudden.

[00:06:47] And what our right brain does is it doesn’t have that simplification of the world that the left brain has, but it basically takes in everything. And so it has this enormous richness, which it captures in visuals because it’s pretty much impossible to capture it in words.

[00:07:04] Now there’s a few interesting bits about that, which is that, and the simple answer that you gave, oh, I live in Cambridge, this is my street name. It all kind of very nicely captures a piece of information that we can then use. The other bits of pieces that you were telling me about where you live, they are a little kind of, they can be a bit haphazard and this is a selection of the whole that you are making. So we’d, we’d have to talk about it or, or interact a little bit more to make sense of it in a way. So it’s, it sometimes can feel less efficient,

[00:07:37] but at the same time, there are two things that are happening. First, what you’re telling me about your house is, are often the things that are actually relevant to you. And so I remember you said big sky, and red bricks and those things are clearly, so that’s, that’s relevant for our connection in a way, because it’s not just pure cold data, uh, but it’s your choice of information.

[00:08:01] The other thing that’s relevant is that because the right brain sees everything, it means that there’s, if there’s anything new, your right brain becomes first aware of it. Your left brain has made this simplification of reality and doesn’t take in new information to adjust that. It basically can be a bit stuck in, its in its simplification, if you will.

[00:08:25] Um, that’s why we, we often say we need to think out of the box when we’re stuck, which literally means we need to drop our, our model of reality and we need to bring in some new information. And for that, your right brain, yeah, that’s, it’s essential.

[00:08:41] Rachel: So I’m really interested in, in how you, how you got here. Have you always been interested in the right brain or is it something that’s developed as you’ve been coaching and working with leaders and you’ve just started to see that, that there’s something missing here? You, we, unless we start looking at this, we are gonna not be so effective, we’re gonna be stuck in our ruts, or did you go on a course and have a massive epiphany? Or how, how did it, how did your interest in the right brains sort come about?

[00:09:08] Yda: When I started coaching, I came from a really heavy problem solving background, both on the science side and on the strategy consulting side. And so I start as I, um, was coaching, I saw that thinking very hard about other people’s problems was actually not helping them very much. And, I was lucky enough to be working with some people that introduced me to different ways of, of problem solving and they introduced me to working with cards and with objects and even with bags of stones and, um, take going, going for walks and, um, all those different ways of working suited me very well. And so I embraced them eagerly as a coach and integrated that into the way I was working with people.

[00:09:52] But then after a couple of years, I started to become curious and I thought, what is actually going on that makes this work? Um, and that led me to a piece of research that gave me these insights around working with the right brain versus working, working with the left brain. it coincided with the point that I also started teaching about coaching and about, uh, uh, how I was working. There’s always no better way to understand what you’re doing than if you’re trying to teach somebody else what you’re doing, right? And so, uh, it, it prompted me to, to really investigate why this was working.

[00:10:29] Um, and that led me to this sort of quest of understanding the right brain and ultimately thinking, you know what? I need to write something about that for a much bigger audience, um, as it’s just such an amazing place that we all have yet can use much more.

[00:10:47] Rachel: I’ve, I’ve thought for a while I’ve been very stuck in my, in my left brain. Um, I think particularly in the UK, we are very stuck in our left brains, particularly even in our, some of our religious practices are quite left brain compared to some of, you know, other world religions, et cetera, et cetera. And everything I’m reading about resilience and thriving in the world talks about your right brain and the importance of connection and the importance of, you know, getting out of the, the ego state, which is, if I understand rightly, often to do with the, with the left brain as well.

[00:11:22] So, so when it popped up, when I saw you, uh, writing a lot on LinkedIn about right brain, I thought, oh, I’ve got to talk to Yda because I just, my quest has been how can I use my right brain more in life, but also in my work? Because I know how powerful it’s been for me in understanding issues.

[00:11:40] And, and, and the issues that a lot of us face, they’re not the logical, linear issues to solve, like, you know, how do I treat migraine or this and that, because there’s answers for that. But it’s like, how do I, how do I deal empathetically with this really difficult situation? Or how do I show compassion when we’re all like this? Or how do I, how do I, how do I? And it strikes me that the tool that we are using, the left brain isn’t really fit for purpose anymore for, for a lot of the things that we need it for.

[00:12:05] Yda: I mean, I have to say something, uh, acknowledge something first because, um, I am a huge fan of the left brain. Um, I’ve used my own left brain, with much success throughout my whole life.

[00:12:17] Rachel: We do need it, right? To be anywhere on time.

[00:12:20] Yda: We, uh, but we wouldn’t be where we are. We wouldn’t have developed our skills and, um, transferred skills and educated people if we weren’t able to create these systems, which make a lot of use of our left brain. And so I think that that left brain has an enormous purpose in our life.

[00:12:38] However, the, I think you, you mentioned a couple of very interesting examples. The moment you start really. dealing with issues which are about relationships between people, it’s difficult for me to imagine that you could possibly do that with only your left brain. Because it’s our right brain, which is so essential. Our right brain is naturally focused on connecting with others. Because it’s, it, it sort of sees the whole. And so it also, the whole includes not only yourself, but also others. Um, in a way, it’s almost like one big bubble of energy.

[00:13:11] I sometimes say, uh, the right brain is naturally inclusive. And so all those kind of issues that we tend to deal with as we become either a bit more older or more senior or that involve complex dynamics between people really require the right brain a lot.

[00:13:28] Now, the other part of it is that, you know, whenever we feel some level of stuckness with a pro a problem or with our life, that’s often people, when people come to coaching, it’s often a little bit bigger than just one particular problem. But when we feel stuck, small scale or big scale, we need the right brain to bring in new perspectives, new insights. So, I, uh, you know, you could also ar you could easily argue that whenever you need to deal with any kind of change or transition or solving a, a new problem, you always really need your right brain.

[00:14:03] Now, I imagine that for doctors, um, and you are know this world much better than I do, Rachel, but I I remember that. I imagine that there’s, there’s a lot of things that can be done with the left brain. And using your left brain as efficiently as possible is probably really keen to make you survive through the day. But for certain types of either problems or people or situations, you wanna be able to activate that right brain intelligence and wisdom very deliberately, because that’s what will help you.

[00:14:35] Rachel: So are you saying that the, the seat of wisdom and intuition is often over on, on the right?

[00:14:42] Yda: Yeah, I think yes, I, the funny thing is that of course we are in fact having a conversation about the left and the right brain and trying to describe all of this with words, which is left brain language to capture the difference between these two hemispheres. But that’s what we, uh, I even wrote a book about it in, it’s a little bit ironic, but that’s how we do, uh, express and communicate and share our thoughts..

[00:15:08] Rachel: in your experience, of of coaching leaders, and I’m, I’m sure you’ve coached some people in some pretty tough, high pressure jobs, what impact does it have when it, when they start to use their right brain as opposed to just stay solely in their left side?

[00:15:22] Yda: A related but similar question. People often ask me about this is that they say, look, Yda, way you’re working with a really senior leader. If you come with your stack of cards or your box of objects, or you say, let’s go for a walk, don’t they look at you like, I don’t have time for this?

[00:15:37] The opposite is the case because I find that that, um, as senior people with a lot of responsibility, by the time that they bring an issue to a coaching conversation, it’s not like they’re thinking about it for the first time. They’ve been processing this and mulling over it, and they’re kind of stuck. And so when I then say, look, I know you’ve done a lot of thinking about this. Let’s try, um, a different way of working to see if we can find some new perspectives. Often the first thing that I see is that people go, ah, okay. So this sort of sense of they’re sort of relaxing into we can do something else than thinking hard about this.

[00:16:17] Once we then get working with the right brain, the conversation tends to be very easy and a little bit playful. As you may remember from. Picking out cards is fun. You know, um, and then all of a sudden you have two cards in front of you and you look at these cards and you’re like, Ooh, there’s something really interesting about these cards. And so it then peaks your curiosity so quickly. Then the, and the insights start coming very fast for most people.

[00:16:47] That, um, that combination of this is quite relaxing and I get something out of it very quickly, makes people quite eager to continue to engage with their right brain. So I often say, instead of me explaining everything about it, let’s just try it and you experience it, and then I don’t need to say much more.

[00:17:09] Rachel: So it’s quite a shortcut really, to, to actually some insights. And then how do people’s behavior then change as, as a result of it? Do? Do people find that they have massive behavior shifts because of the insight shifts, or is there something else going on as well?

[00:17:22] Yda: So I always think that you need to do multiple things to change behaviors, particular behaviors that are kind of really part of your automatic pilot and that you’ve been doing for years. And so, um, sometimes a mindset shift or a new insight can be a good piece of this, but often you also need some very practical steps and you need to do some experiments. And so we will, we will look at both. We won’t just rely on a, uh, on a new idea or, uh, a shift in perspective, uh, but we’ll also identify some really clear actions, usually with the help of the left brain, again, on how to make a new idea practical.

[00:18:02] Rachel: And is there any other ways that the right brain can really help someone who’s, who’s feeling stuck or maybe in positions of leadership where they’re facing these right, really wicked problems and stuff that there isn’t really a solution to. Workload, that very, very common thing is we just have so much work. No matter how much I prioritize, I, I can’t get it all done. And yet there is nobody else to do it. And we’re hemorrhaging staff and we can’t recruit anybody, but someone’s got to do it. What on earth do I do? You know, these things about recruitment, retention, dealing with the workload, toxic work environments where we would love to be able to change it, but there really isn’t anything we can do, therefore we have to sort of almost accept it in getting on with it.

[00:18:51] But these problems that, that don’t have solutions, I’m just wondering, yeah, ’cause we try and puzzle them out and the solutions we have is, so actually you work out what you’re in control of and what you’re not, and you just have to accept the stuff you’re not, and then have a bit of courage to have those difficult conversations, which is, which is great. But sometimes I think the, the right brain could really add into some of the, I guess maybe it’s, and this is where you’re coaching me, aren’t you here? It is not necessarily about finding solutions. It’s about how does the right brain help you maybe accept stuff that, that doesn’t have a solution or I, I, I don’t know.

[00:19:25] Yda: I mean obviously these are really complex and complicated situations. Um, and it’s not that I’m sitting here and think, oh, my right brain has all the answers at all. What I experience when I’m working with my, uh, coachees in a right brain way with similar kind of issues is that, um, as you say, sometimes indeed, having a good overview of the situation, um, that your right brain can, it’s like your right brain always lifts you to a higher level of looking at something. And sometimes that from that bigger helicopter view you do, either you see more things or with that sense of distance, you have a, it makes it easier to accept what is, which can be part of that acceptance that you were talking about. Sometimes that helicopter view can also give you another nudge of a new idea.

[00:20:24] So often, often when, when you’re working with a group of people, the helicopter views can have a sense of alignment because with our right brain, we tend to see the things that we have in common rather than the things that divide us. And then when we are in such a complex situation, and we have that sense of common ground, then sometimes tackling the difficult issues is easier because you’re doing it together.

[00:20:50] I was working with a team very recently. It’s not a team of medical professionals, but their situation is very complex. And their business is also so complicated that even with my left brain, there’s no way I can, uh, give them answers either. Um, but we, we, we worked, we did some right brain, um, uh, exercises around, um, have, pick a picture that describes what brings you to work. And they, when they started sharing those pictures with each other, and this didn’t take a long time, um, there was the, the sense of common ground was so strong in the group that they then went to tackle some of the more, those really more tricky nitty gritty, uh, problems that they have with a different kind of energy.

[00:21:35] So that, um, I think that that’s, there’s this sort of acceptance, new insight, new energy, because you do things, to do things together that can be, um, that can be beneficial. It’s not a magic silver bullet. I turn on my right brain and then everything, uh, uh, everything goes away. But, um, it does tend to, it’s like you, you sort of. Switch a little.

[00:22:02] It’s if you’re in, if you think about somebody 360 degrees, it’s like your whole sort of stance towards something can just become slightly different.

[00:22:13] Rachel: It makes sense to me that the right brain, yeah, you, you’re taking a helicopter view, it can really help you get some distance and some acceptance. I mean, one of the, one of the sort of catch phrases we have is just f it. You know, it actually, a lot of the stuff you just have to let go of the outcomes, the expectations. And that is easier when you’re more distanced from the problem. When the left brain’s going, this is a really, really, really important thing. If you right brain and go, you know what? It’s not actually that important.

[00:22:40] And I guess this is where the ego comes in and I’d love to ask you about that because I think, I’ve been reading a bit about the ego recently. You know, that bit that we. Identify with as, as us, that’s separate from everybody else. That’s very striving that, that, that has to, that that, that gets the threat from everywhere, that, you know, the, the bit that’s defensive about protecting us all the time. And, and often gets in the way of being a good leader or being a good doctor or, or, or, or whatever.

[00:23:10] And it’s my understanding correct that the ego is, is really quite firmly located on, on the left and that the right brain thinking just sort of smashes through that sort of ego-centric type thinking?

[00:23:24] Yda: So the word ego comes with a lot of baggage in the field of psychology and therapy. And, um, and so I always use, I, I’m careful with that word because, of all that baggage.

[00:23:38] What’s, what I would say about the left and the right brain is that your left brain definitely it separates you from the world. Whereas your, from your right brain perspective, the world is just one big thing and you are part of it. I’m part of it. in a way we’re all energy. And so that sense of separation doesn’t really exist in the, what your, uh, right brain sees, whereas it does in what the left brain sees.

[00:24:06] And if your, if your left brain creates a model of the world and that includes you, and that definitely has some flavor of you and your ego to it. But I, I, I don’t the word ego, I always stay away from it a little bit because of the bigger connotations that we were just talking about.

[00:24:23] Rachel: So maybe individualization or something.

[00:24:25] Yda: Yeah, well, and, what very often happens is that, um, you know, you look at your situation, you think about it in a certain way, and of course you think about it with your own brain and you have your own model that you apply to that situation that’s yours. Somebody else can look at exactly the same thing and just have a different view of the situation because they’re looking at the situation through their lens.

[00:24:47] Now those lenses, uh, are the simplification, they’re, they’re models of reality from the left brain, simplified by also their model of themselves, uh, so that does have a lot of individualization to it. and your right brain just snaps you out of all that.

[00:25:03] Rachel: I get that and I think, I mean, there’s a few phrases that come to mind. I think someone said to me once, you know, you can achieve anything in the world if you don’t care who gets the credit. And I, I love that. And for me, that’s like, actually, yeah, because if we are focused on the separation of ourselves, that’s where we get defensive, that’s where we fight our own corner, which can be so destructive in, in, in many, many relationships.

[00:25:27] But how, how do we do this? How do we get more benefit from our, from our right brain without it being too, I was gonna say woowoo, but I, I don’t wanna say woowoo. So

[00:25:38] Yda: Yes, yes,

[00:25:39] Rachel: because people don’t like, I mean, I can imagine, like, you get probably a lot of it, if you go to an l and d thing and go, yeah, I’m gonna take your senior leader, I’m gonna walk them around the park and then we’re gonna look at some cards and do some pictures, they’d be like, oh my, ah, you know, but actually it’s brilliant when they do it.

[00:25:53] Yda: No, and as a coach, you have a lot more license to do some, I had to, to work with creative tools, but, um, there are many, many ways to bring the right brain much stronger online without using a stack of picture cards. I’ll give you a couple of really simple examples.

[00:26:10] So first, um, the use of metaphor in a conversation is already a very natural thing. And you can, you can practicing bringing metaphor into a conversation very easily. Some people do it naturally and we only have to pick up, oh, we have to notice the metaphors and then expand them a little bit. That’s one way. But sometimes you can also guide people into a metaphor. Um, like you can ask them, um, have, if they come with a problem, you can ask them, uh, what, um, if, if you are thinking about the solution for this situation, what sort of recipe is that? Is it, uh, is it you going to the fridge and just throwing a few things together? Is, is you cooking some, uh, some Ottolenghi if there’s a feel more Jamie Oliver, and people will say, especially if the, if you know the other person likes to cook, that will often generate a lot of interesting, uh, ideas for them.

[00:27:11] So you, you, or you can, uh, this is a typical one. If somebody has a problem with, uh, um, with a colleague, or you just ask ’em, okay, what animal do they remind you of? or what kind of car or what color. So you, metaphor is a very good way to bring the right brain naturally into conversation.

[00:27:30] Now, a second extremely practical way to do this is that, um, your right brain is, is very in touch with your body and is also very in touch with the information that you get through your senses. So if you’re in a conversation and you ask somebody, what do you think? You go straight into a left brain processing. But if you ask instead, what do you see? What do you hear? What do you sense? Where do you stand? All sorts of words that, that more or less get at the same question, but have that sort of sensory angle to it. They also create a very different response, a very different discussion because they, it becomes more, more right brain becomes part of it.

[00:28:12] My, My third, um, uh, maybe practical tip is very, uh, is indeed to, uh, think the notion to just, uh, tell, to say to somebody, ah, let’s just walk around the block while we talk about this. We can stretch our legs at the same time is actually really easy. And we tend to have a much more collaborative conversation when we’re walking next to each other as opposed to sitting opposite.

[00:28:37] Rachel: And even if you are not, face to face, even if you are on, on Zoom or whatever, I mean, I think when we, when we chatted a couple of weeks ago, we, we were, I, I was like, I, I’ve been in front of Zoom all day, I need to get out. And it was, yeah. It’s great. You’re stomping along and Yeah. Having a great old chinwag and in nature, even better.

[00:28:55] Yda: I have that a lot these days when you’re doing a lot of Zoom work that both people say, oh, let me just, let’s just go for a walk while we talk, works perfectly.

[00:29:03] So what often happens is when I talk about this with people that they then say to me, ah, I actually use my right brain in these situations without knowing that’s what I’m doing. And it often works really well. And I had a great example, uh, uh, last week where somebody said, oh, I’m, I’m now realizing that I’m always using my right brain to say no to people. I was like, Hmm, very curious to hear more. And what she uh, explained is she said, look, when, um, one of my colleagues comes with a pretty, um, unrealistic request, and one of them has a tendency to do that, and I know that they are an very keen sports person. Um, sometimes I say to them, I’m making up the names here, but I might say, um, Sarah, you’re asking me to run, uh, a hundred meter sprint with my hand stein behind my back hopping on one foot.

[00:29:57] And then, the, uh, Sarah will say, ah, yeah, that doesn’t work. I can see that.

[00:30:02] Rachel: That’s brilliant.

[00:30:03] Yda: I know. I thought so too. I was like, this so that notion of people when they hear about and start seeing this difference between left and right and knowing what they’re doing and how effective the right brain is, that then also makes it, the more aware you are, then it makes it easier to activate it more actively.

[00:30:22] Because the one thing that we haven’t talked about yet, but it’s very important to understand, is that your left brain is unaware of the right, and, and in a way, arguably even ignores the right brain. Whereas your right brain knows that the left is there.

[00:30:40] Rachel: I didn’t know that. That’s fascinating.

[00:30:41] Yda: I know it’s fascinated. That’s why I’m, I had a, the whole, even though I’m saying I really like the left and the right brain, and I, I’m not arguing for using left less, but arguing for using Right more. But in order to use both, you have to lead with your right brain.

[00:30:58] Rachel: Why is that? Why have we evolved so that the left doesn’t know about the right? Is that ’cause we always want the left to trump the right, ’cause it keeps us safe?

[00:31:05] Yda: Don’t know. I don’t know. We’re not the only species with, um, a left and a right hemisphere, and they always have a different experience of the world, like our two hemispheres have as well.

[00:31:16] And I think there, there, yeah, like in birds for example, um, what is known is that the left hemisphere from a bird is really focused on picking up the right seeds from the ground, like very nitty gritty to not eat something poisonous, whereas the right side of the brain is more focused on scanning the whole environment to make sure that there is no threat.

[00:31:36] Rachel: So it’s interesting. So I’m thinking that if, if you are as a leader trying to sort of lead a team coming up with solutions to problems then rather than just brainstorming solutions to start off with, what you should start off with is getting the metaphors out there or getting the picture cards or the just doing something to explore what the right brain is saying about this problem first, get that information first, then go to the left brain for the more linear problem solve. So this is what we can do about it bit.

[00:32:06] Yda: Yeah, and, uh, the iteration is absolutely, uh, uh, essential, I always think. And I think it depends a little bit on the situation, which how you pick the iteration. I was also speaking to somebody recently who said that in their, um, actually it was their previous company, every time they had in introduced a problem, they also had to find a, a, a a, a picture on, in a PowerPoint presentation to illustrate the problem so that they could align first around, and that people could align around that picture and agree that that was a good image of the, uh, of the issue, and then they would go back to, then they would start brainstorming and then they would start doing more, uh, hazard of logical problem solving.

[00:32:52] Rachel: Then it develops such an easy shared language as well, because it’d be like, yes, there’s the zebra or there’s the. And I think I just thinking in, um. in medicine, we do it all the time. We have lots of metaphors and say, and this is a really stupid one, but you know, if someone says, it’s as rare as rocking horse manure, you know what they’re talking about. You know, it’s like that doesn’t, you know, you just immediately know rather than it’s very rare conditional, whatever. I mean, I know that’s a really stupid example, but those comparisons are the things that you can, you can spring to mind already.

[00:33:22] And, and I’m thinking about where else we use it in medicine and we have, we have pain charts for patients, you know, with, with different faces and stuff, which is much more helpful than, than adjuster one, a one. I mean, one to 10 is better than how bad is your pain. But the, but the smiley faces that, oh, face or whatever is better as well.

[00:33:40] And I remember, you know, when I was a gp, if I would draw a diagram for a patient, you know, particularly, I used to draw a lot of diagrams of uterus and linings of wounds for some reason, I, I dunno why, but that so much easier to, I dunno if we talk about Right. Brain hill or just, but just to explain stuff and to, to, to get the messages through.

[00:34:01] Yda: Uh, Rachel, 100%. Drawing is actually a very, uh, very good way to bring your right brain or life align well because it creates a visual of what, what you’re talking about. And I’ve, for all my medical visits, I can tell you that has been extremely, uh, helpful when the doctor would do that.

[00:34:19] When I was thinking about our conversation earlier today, I remembered, uh, something from my, uh, from my youth as well in terms of how the right brain was used in, at least for me in a medical setting very effectively. Um, in my twenties, I had a condition, um, and I had to take medication for it for a long time, six months or nine months or something. I forget. It was really a long time to basically reset and get over it. And I’d done that. And of course, six months later I was back at the specialist because the thing had flared up again.

[00:34:51] And I remember it was a very old doctor, he was right before his retirement and he said something to me, uh, which, and he basically said, young lady, let me paint you a picture of a couple of diff of two different futures. And he painted me a picture of what the future would be, if I got my act together and changed some life habits, what my future would look like and if I didn’t do that, what my future would look like.

[00:35:15] And then he said to me, I’m gonna give you this medication one more time, and then it’s up to you which one of these paths you pick. And, I think you can guess which one I took.

[00:35:24] Rachel: So what now? Did he actually paint your picture? It was just a metaphor he described to you?

[00:35:28] Yda: Yeah. But he painted it. He said, look, when, when you’re, if, if your life will evolve like this, or your life will evolve like this. And he, he made it visual for me.

[00:35:37] Rachel: So the words, sort of, I’m gonna paint you a picture, then you, you start to visualize and, and look at And look at it.

[00:35:42] Yda: I could see it.

[00:35:43] Rachel: See, I always find diagrams really helpful, but they’re not necessarily pictures. But does that work in the same way? Because lots of people, like,

[00:35:51] Yda: if, for me it’s A visual a

[00:35:52] Rachel: okay, if it’s just arrows or circles or whatever, it doesn’t need to be a beautiful painting. But, but even then, and I think I was telling you this on, on the walk, I was at a, a coaching conference and they got us, uh, to, to just draw a picture of, of something that was, we felt stuck with or whatever. And, and even it was, I just, I, I always say I’m an absolutely terrible artist, but stick diagram, literally stick diagrams and speech bubbles and things like that created this massive shift in me.

[00:36:20] Immediately I was like, oh my gosh, I know exactly what I’ve got to do. ’cause I had just put the stick diagrams down. I mean, what happens when you, because I’m presuming you do this, get people to actually draw a picture? ’cause I, I can imagine you probably get a bit of pushback to start off with.

[00:36:35] Yda: So a lot of people, the first thing they say is, oh, I can’t draw. And actually that’s a little bit of left brain resistance to what’s this drawing nonsense? But if you then say to somebody, just a few lines on the paper, stick figures, doesn’t matter. I can’t draw either. And give them the pen in their hands, that’s what I always do. I make sure that the, that, that I have the pen in the paper in my hand so that I can give it to the person. They start, people start drawing.

[00:37:02] I had similar drawing conversation with somebody recently where they, I said, can you draw the team? Because we, they were talking about their team. They had drawn the team and we kind of started talking about it. And then all of a sudden, uh, she said, oh, I forgot somebody. How interesting. Uh, and some people were very close together, in other words, were much further apart. And that was exactly the kind of information that we needed to speak about the dynamics.

[00:37:30] But it’s, can I, can I, sorry, I, I’ll ask you a question if you don’t mind, Rachel, but it sounds like in your toolkit, and from what I’ve seen on it in the past, actually, there’s a lot of visuals in it, and a lot of you are very good at bringing in simple diagrams that help people just, you know, take a little perspective or, um, answer a que question in a slightly different way. And, uh, I like a lot the visuals that you’ve put in there.

[00:37:57] Rachel: Thank you. I mean, I guess that is just because I find I don’t remember anything unless it’s in a diagram or a visual. And I love models. I love models and ideas. I sort of try to describe what do I do? Well, I think I would probably say I just collect ideas. I’m a curator of ideas, and then I try and sort of translating them and then spitting them out in the right format for other people to collect. And I, I love reading books and listening to podcasts, and I’m aware that lots of people either don’t have the time or the inclination to do that.

[00:38:24] So, but I found that the only ideas I remembered were the ones that were in a, a visual plate, like a shape or maybe just the F’s or met metaphors are very good as well. And that would allow you to share your ideas much, much more quickly. Which is why when I started getting asked to do resilience training in organizations and for doctors and stuff, and realize that resilience, that that dirty r word is so much more than just wellbeing. It’s about time management. It’s, it’s about conversations. It’s about managing yourself, control, choice. I’m thinking, well, there are so many things to remember here. How on earth can we make this so that it’s really easy to do and you can just pick up the right tool for the right thing?

[00:39:05] And, and so that’s how the shapes toolkit happened. Just by accident. I was thinking, well, how can we coordinate this? Oh, there’s a triangle and there’s a circle. So, so how can we do that? And so that I think, has been really, and I use these shapes myself, so it all started with me using them. So that has been why I’ve, I’ve done it really. ‘Cause otherwise you just, you know, the theory, but I think it’s about recall as well. It’s very difficult to recall stuff when it’s just, when it’s just words.

[00:39:32] Yda: Yeah, I, I try to find out, out why that’s the case. And what I, understood from the research I did is that, um, people don’t exactly know fully why it is that we remember pictures or shapes, et cetera, so much better. Um, but the, the, the going hypothesis is that it creates a double entry in your memory. So it creates a visual entry and a verbal entry, and that, that combination, uh, is apparently very useful. But I think that’s up until today, not fully, yeah, confirmed or proven or whether it’s the best explanation we got.

[00:40:10] Rachel: It’s really interesting, isn’t it? So someone said a couple of nights ago on a webinar, we, we were talking about joy and, and fun and Happiness. Someone just did one line of a poem, which I can remember, I can’t really remember anything else that was said, but the line was something like, joy seeps through the cracks of your imperfect life. I’m like, oh, that’s wonderful.

[00:40:30] Now that’s me. I guess that’s quite right brain, ’cause you’re thinking about seeping and cracks, aren’t you? And that means so much more than just if you just said, well, you know, you can find little bits of joy even when life isn’t in life isn’t great. So. It’s just so important for remembering and connecting.

[00:40:48] And I’m glad you said that diagrams work as well as, as, as, as pictures too as well because I think, you know, diagrams seem to be very acceptable in certain places or whatever, but actually if you can diagramatize things and, and codify ideas into pictures and, and, and stories and metaphors and shapes, you’re just so much more like to remember them and use them.

[00:41:08] Yda: Yeah. I, I, I mean, you know, I love diagrams. Um, simple little ways to support a conversation are so useful. I think what it also does, if you have anything on paper, whether it’s a proper picture or a diagram, is that it creates in a conversation, this act of looking at something together. And then you’re looking together at a diagram or a picture and the subject actually is not anymore distinct between the two of you, but it’s on that piece of paper.

[00:41:42] Somebody said in a workshop a couple of weeks also to me said, if I’m talking about my issue with a picture, it’s much easier if the other person doesn’t agree with me or tells me that they see something else in the picture. I don’t feel that as an, uh, as an insult or as a personal attack, it’s more like, um, oh, interesting. I see something different. You, it’s easier to see different things on the paper.

[00:42:10] Um, and of course when you really want to do some, uh, I think this is the, the essence of doing problem solving together and bringing a lot of diversity of experience and viewpoints and backgrounds and whatever way is possible in the room, is that you, um, you allow all those different viewpoints to exist without feeling threatened by them.

[00:42:31] And so the act of having something tangible that represents it, whether it’s a piece of paper with a drawing or, or a metaphor, uh, it really helps, helps discussions, I find.

[00:42:44] Rachel: Yeah. I love that. So it just takes all the confrontation, defensiveness out, and actually all you’re doing is being curious.

[00:42:51] Yda: Yeah. Imagine that. If, if you, if I said something and you said to me, huh, I see that complete, or that’s, I see that completely differently, I would immediately go, huh? Whereas if, if indeed we’re looking at a picture together and you say, oh, I see something different. I’m like, okay, tell me what you see. I would get curious instead of defensive.

[00:43:10] Rachel: I love that. And that’s presumably ’cause it’s your bright brains thinking about it, rather than the left brain going, well, they’ve said something directly against me. This is like, Ooh, wow, connections, big picture, things like that. So fascinating. Could talk about this forever, but we are very nearly outta time.

[00:43:25] And in a minute I’m gonna ask where people can get a hold of you if they want to and find out more about your work. But I’m going to spring something on you now, so please feel free to say no. Have you got a two minute exercise you could take us through now for anyone who’s sort of sitting at home, who is feeling a bit stuck about stuff? Because I know you’ve talked about the power of. The right brain in, in conversations between people. But I, I’m presuming you can also use this instead of a bit of self-coaching as well, in terms of maybe drawing a picture or thinking of a metaphor. Is there anything that you could do with us for literally 30 seconds to a minute that would allow people who are thinking about a situation just to start to access their right brain whilst thinking through that?

[00:44:05] Yda: So I dunno if this works so well on the podcast because people don’t see us, but I’ll, I’ll just see if I can describe it. if we can do it together, Rachel, and then, maybe people will get it when they’re listening.

[00:44:17] Rachel: And also just to say we do put these on YouTube, so if you’re listening and you want to go and watch this bit, then do head over to the YouTube channel to have a look.

[00:44:24] Yda: Yes, you can see it there. So can you think of, um, just a situation that you’re currently in or dealing with or something that you feel you have to address?

[00:44:34] Now can you show me with your hands in terms of shape, how big is this thing?

[00:44:40] Rachel: So just for or for the audio thing? I’m holding my hands just about shoulder width apart.

[00:44:44] Yda: Shoulder width. Shoulder width wide. And now that you have this in between your hands, trust your body to give you the answer here, Now you have this in your hand like this. What do you wanna do with it?

[00:44:57] Rachel: Uh, I want to throw it to somebody else to sort out, yeah.

[00:45:02] Yda: you wanna throw it to somebody else?

[00:45:03] Rachel: Mm-Hmm.

[00:45:04] Yda: okay. Give it a try.

[00:45:05] Rachel: Okay. I’ve just thrown it to Yda.

[00:45:08] Yda: I got it.

[00:45:09] Rachel: Great.

[00:45:10] Yda: Now, take a moment. What does this, what’s this significance of this particular action? What do you make of it?

[00:45:19] Rachel: It, it’s really interesting, I think, yeah, I immediately thought, oh, thank goodness. Someone, someone else can sort it. ’cause I’m worried I’ll, I’ll do the wrong thing and my decision and someone might do it better than me or know a bit more than me what the best thing is. Or it just feels like a little bit, a little bit too, too complicated. But it’s more about actually, I, I don’t want to do the wrong thing, yeah.

[00:45:48] Yda: Yeah. And perhaps you, you’re not very keen to keep holding this thing just by yourself.

[00:45:54] Rachel: Mm, yes.

[00:45:56] Yda: Sometimes voicing those, um, realizations, then later on today, we’ll give you some ideas about what a next step to do is in this particular, for this particular situation.

[00:46:11] Rachel: Oh, it already has actually that, that follow up question. ’cause actually it’s like, okay, I don’t have to make this decision by myself. I have a team. I have a team. Literally can be asking them. Yes. It’s ridiculous. You feel like you’re carrying this thing and I’m not carrying it all on my own. I have other people around, so, yeah. Interesting, but why am I, why do I think that it’s me carrying it? That’s it. That’s an interesting

[00:46:32] Yda: I know. But, and, and you know, when something is this big, as you were indicating, you know, it is actually quite tiring to keep holding it. You’re not sub, you’re not completely collapsing under it. It’s not that big, but still takes up quite a lot of energy to keep carrying it.

[00:46:47] Rachel: So it might be actually moving up the agenda and, and actually sharing with the, the team, actually, I’m not quite sure what to do with this. Can I have some, some help and, and, and more input? Yeah, that’s useful. Oh gosh. It’s amazing, isn’t it?

[00:47:01] Yda: I did this with a group, group of people once, and some people said, oh, I just wanna hug it. I wanna hold it. Other people said, I wanna chop it in pieces. Other people said, I wanna throw it away. It was, it’s, it’s this instinct that your body wants to do is, so that’s where, that’s the combination of size plus then what your body wants to do with it, that’s where the, where, that’s where some interesting realizations are.

[00:47:28] Rachel: That’s really interesting. ’cause I was thinking, oh my goodness, probably. I’m sure everyone just wants to throw it at you, but No, some of the people want to chop it, hug it. Ooh. Oh, wow. What, what a good technique. I’ll, I’ll try that. And, and presumably going onto your book, do you have some of these techniques in your

[00:47:44] Yda: Yes.

[00:47:44] Rachel: you talk about some ways to do this? Oh, wonderful.

[00:47:47] Yda: Yeah. So I wrote the book really for people and leaders in companies and, who are not trained coaches. Trained coaches, uh, will find it interesting too, I’m sure. But it a lot, these techniques are deliberately accessible for everybody and, and practical and quickly to apply.

[00:48:05] Rachel: And that’s really important because, uh, you know, we’re the best one in the world. It’d be wonderful to have a team coach with you all the time, but mostly you don’t have a coach with you and you are solving these problems in your teams, or one-to-one conversations when you, when you don’t have anyone to support you in that. So I can imagine how, how helpful that would be.

[00:48:19] So thank you so much for being with us. If people wanted to get a hold of the book, wanted to find out about you, where can they go?

[00:48:26] Yda: Alright, so the book is on Amazon, which means it gets printed locally wherever you live, so you can order it off your local, uh, Amazon. There’s my website, bouvierltd.com. Uh, the book is called Leading With the Right Brain, um, and you can find me on LinkedIn and I’m very happy to, uh, to be connected and stay in touch. So don’t hesitate to reach out there.

[00:48:46] Rachel: Great. Thank you so much. It’s been so wonderful to chat with you and hopefully we’ll speak again soon.

[00:48:52] Yda: Thanks Rachel.

[00:48:53] Rachel: Thanks for listening. Don’t forget, we provide a self coaching CPD workbook for every episode. You can sign up for it via the link in the show notes. And if this episode was helpful, then please share it with a friend. Get in touch with any comments or suggestions at hello@youarenotafrog.com. I love to hear from you. And finally, if you’re enjoying the podcast, please rate it and leave a review wherever you’re listening. It really helps. Bye for now.