How to Find Your Voice

[00:00:00] **Rachel:** How do you feel about speaking up in meetings? Does the thought of it make you really uncomfortable, or are you always the one who’s got something to say when the facilitator asks for feedback?

[00:00:11] This week Dr. Claire Kaye is back on the podcast, and if you’re anything like some of our coaching clients, you’ll know that feeling of fear or helplessness that can come up when, you know, there’s something that needs to be said, but you’re not sure it’s your senior. Or qualified enough to say it. Some of us on the other hand, could maybe try sitting on our hands for a few minutes and maybe letting somebody else speak. So that’s why Claire’s here to discuss how we can find our voice and use it effectively.

[00:00:39] If you’re in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you’re feeling stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options. I’m Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog.

[00:00:55] **Claire:** Hi, my name’s Dr. Claire Kaye. I’m an executive career coach specializing in career development and perimenopause in the workplace, and I’m a former GP.

[00:01:03] **Rachel:** Claire, it’s brilliant to have you back on the podcast. How many times have you been on now?

[00:01:08] **Claire:** I’ve lost count. Very happy to be back, though.

[00:01:11] **Rachel:** Yeah. Well, you know, I always learn a lot when I, when I speak to you, and I know that it, they’re always really valuable for people. And this, this time we’re gonna talk about how to find your voice, which is a title that immediately grabbed me. But why is this important to you?

[00:01:27] **Claire:** So this is important on lots of levels, and I think it, it came to me recently because I was, um, coaching a client, very lovely woman, and she. We were ta starting our initial sessions, and she just started talking and her hand went immediately to her neck. When she was talking about being in a meeting or discussing something that felt uncomfortable in this meeting. Like literally, and if you’re listening to this, rather than watching this, my hand is literally like around my neck as if it’s, if it’s, if I’m strangled.

[00:01:55] And I saw this because I was on Zoom with her and I was like, oh my goodness, this feels monumental. And I said to her. I’ve just watched you put your hand around your neck. Tell me about that. And she started to say how she just didn’t feel like she could speak in meetings that her, that if she did speak, maybe people would laugh at her, or maybe they’d think she was stupid or maybe her opinion didn’t really matter. Maybe she should keep quiet. And when she did speak up, she felt this like gripping di discomfort around her neck and as if it was really terrifying to do that. And so she just didn’t speak very much in meetings and didn’t really voice her thoughts.

[00:02:31] And really fascinatingly, we used that as the sort of center of our coaching. And we established that really part of this was that she didn’t really know what her voice was and wasn’t able to express it. And towards the end of our last session, I said to her, we’d done, we’d done lots of, um, tips and tricks of how to find her voice and use her voice. And the last session we were talking about her being in a really difficult meeting. And in that difficult meeting, she flung her arms open. She said, you know what? And I said this and I said that. And she was moving her arms everywhere. And I said, and then I, and then I expressed my opinion, and her arms were really wide and open. And I said, how did that feel? And she said, it felt liberating. It felt joyful. I felt alive. I felt heard. And I said, did anything bad happen when you did that? She goes, no. They didn’t agree with everything I said, but that was fine.

[00:03:25] And suddenly we’d gone from this gripping really poignant moment with her gripping her throat when she spoke to her being really open and feeling live and liberated. And I genuinely really related to that personally, but I just thought, God, that is incredible. Like that is incredible to go from feeling so hemmed in and stuck, to feeling so alive and liberated, by finding your voice. And so when I heard when she did that, I was like, oh my goodness, we need to talk about this more.

[00:03:55] And then I’m a bit slow on the uptake, me. I suddenly realized that one of my, on my computer, I’ll just show you here, I’ve got a little PostIt note like that, and every day it says, I look at it and it, it says voice and variety, which are the two things that really fire me up. Having a voice, using my voice, finding my voice, hoping that maybe by sharing my voice I might be able to help one person, enjoying having a voice.

[00:04:22] Because I don’t know about you, but as a doctor, I don’t think I ever felt like I had a voice. And that might have been partly the environment, working in the NHS, even though I loved it, but it might also just be the conveyor belt of medicine and feeling like I just had to follow the path and follow the rule and, and it wasn’t about being a rebel or anything, but I just didn’t really feel like my opinion really mattered or was interesting or was useful. And it was only really when I became a coach that I found my voice. And it was kind of scary and kind of amazing, and I just thought, ooh, that’s really important.

[00:05:01] And then my third reason for wanting to talk about this is I was my daughter who is 11, gets The Week Junior, which I thoroughly recommend to anybody. I’m not, not sponsored by them, but I think they’re brilliant. And um, this week’s cover was all about children finding their voice. And not just about environmental issues or, you know, political things, but really finding their voice about understanding what they enjoyed and what sparks them, you know, lit them up and how to share it in, if they were an introvert or how to share it if they’re an extrovert. And I just thought this, this feels like a really important topic to talk about.

[00:05:37] **Rachel:** I’m just thinking how helpful that that Week Junior magazine would be. Maybe we all should to read it. We all ought to read it. I love the week junior. I had teenagers now, so we have the The Week, The Week Senior, and that is actually. Side note, if you find watching the news distressing constantly, you know the bad stuff in your inbox, then what I do is I don’t look at the news in the week. I, I, well, during The Week, I look at the news in the week on a Saturday, I read it from cover to cover. And that is, that is enough, and you get a really lovely spread of stuff. So that’s just a, that’s just a side note.

[00:06:09] How wonderful as a child learning how to speak and express an opinion because that just is something we are not taught how to do at medical school, right?

[00:06:19] **Claire:** Yeah, I don’t think we’re ever taught how to do it, and I think a lot of it comes from knowing who we are. And I think, maybe I’m generalizing, maybe I’m wrong, but I, my experience of going through medical school and being a doctor is that we give so much to other people. We’re really great at that. And we have a voice in the consultation, but actually knowing who we are, knowing what we stand for, our values, our purpose, what drives us, what fires us up, what our strengths are, what we bring to the table, what value we add, in my experience, bear in mind that I coach and speak to doctors every day, all day, my experience is that doctors are not very good at that bit. We are not very good at knowing who we are and what we stand for. Maybe not in all parts of our lives, but certainly in some parts of our lives. And I think even if we do know who we are and what we stand for, it can feel really hard to speak up.

[00:07:18] So I think there’s two aspects for this. There’s so, for some people it’s finding their voice and for other people it’s actually using their voice and being able to use their voice in a way that allows ’em to accept rejection if it doesn’t go their way,. ’cause it’s not, this isn’t about always being right and being really dogmatic, it’s just about being able to express your thoughts.

[00:07:39] And I think it’s also about being able to know how to use your voice that fits with your personality. And that also can feel really hard. Because if you’re slightly more introverted, speaking up in a meeting might feel really, really hard. But maybe if you’re more extrovert, that might feel easier. But maybe if you’re more extrovert, perhaps you’ll come across as slightly overconfident or overbearing, which means that people don’t necessarily listen to your voice. So it’s about all those bits thrown in, which makes it really sometimes feel easier not to find your voice and not to use it.

[00:08:11] **Rachel:** I think doctors, especially, we feel like we have a voice in some things. So when it comes to like clinical management of the patient, we tend to be the, the experts and then we maybe use our voices a little bit too much and don’t listen to the, the other voices around. I just being taken back to some of the, the vulnerable patient meetings we used to have at the surgery. And um, with one particular surgery. I worked at where I was put in charge of overhauling the meetings ’cause they were so bad. And I went and asked the the district nurses why they were so bad. And they just said quite literally some of these personalities around here. Because the doctors were just talking, talking and not letting the district nurses get, get a word in edge phrase because we were so sure of ourselves and our own clinical judgment and this is what needs to be done. So we sort of maybe overdo it on the, the expertise bit and maybe some of the ethical bits of, you know, actually how, how we care for patients, which, which, which isn’t a bad thing. I think that’s really important. But we then underdo it on the, on the other stuff that we’re not maybe quite so sure about because it could be a judgment call or could be sort of an intuition and, or it could be something around sort of business, for example, or, you know, interpersonal interactions that we may be, don’t feel that we are, we’re not experts on that. Therefore. We feel that we’re not qualified to speak up. I mean, it, it’s, I’m really interested in what was stopping this, this lady that you were coaching, what was stopping her speaking up?

[00:09:45] **Claire:** I think for her it was a fear of people would think her opinion was rubbish. That actually if she did speak up, they would kind of be like, oh God, why is she talking? Not because they didn’t value her as in, in her role, but just like, well, you not adding anything here.

[00:10:02] But I was thinking just as you were saying that actually, that actually for some people as well, even if you feel like an expert, or like good enough in your consultation, sometimes when you’re sitting round with a room full of, you know, healthcare professionals, whether it’s all doctors or a mix of different healthcare professionals, it can feel like, partly ’cause I think a lot of people, you know, suffer from imposter syndrome or feeling self-doubt, that actually it’s really hard when there’s somebody in the room going, actually, clinically we should be doing X with this patient. And I dunno about you, but I’ve sat there plenty of times going, really, I, I wasn’t sure that, oh, maybe I didn’t know that. Or, oh gosh, oh, I, I thought we should be doing this. And then I think, oh, well, it must be my knowledge that isn’t good enough. Or, or it must be that I haven’t researched this enough. Oh, just have to listen to what they have to say.

[00:10:52] So there’s a little bit of that. And then as you say, there’s also that sense of if you are sure in what it is that you are thinking, you know, because you’ve got the clinical knowledge to back it up actually, if you are clear about knowing what your voice is at that particular moment and you found it and you wanna use it, it’s really important to be listening to other people’s voices. Because that diversity of opinion stops us being in that echo chamber. That’s what it’s all about, particularly like it’s becoming more and more apparent. When you look at how, when teams function really well, it’s when that diverse opinion is respected and used.

[00:11:27] So there’s that sense of, if you’re really great at this and you’re thinking, well, I know my voice and I’m really good at using it actually for you, maybe it’s that bit around making sure you are allowing other people to use their voice and to really listening to it. And if you are like me sitting in that meeting of everyone going, oh yes, we should be doing this, and thinking, gosh, I, I, I thought maybe, actually it’s okay to ask a question. It’s okay to offer a different opinion, because that’s how you get better and more successful outcomes. So I think there’s a lot.

[00:11:57] In that, and then there’s all that bit that you were talking about, which I think is really poignant about that you might feel really good at using your voice around the clinical, say, if you feel really confident about that side. But maybe you’ll really have no understanding about the business side of it, or maybe you have no understanding about, there’s a lot of conflict between two people in the room or something and that feels really scary. So you shy away from it. And actually sometimes leaning into those things and thinking, what do I think? And actually thinking, oh, that’s still valuable. Okay, maybe I could share this in a way that feels non-confrontational. Maybe, you know, at the right time in the conversation. But actually, maybe I have something to add here.

[00:12:36] **Rachel:** I think when people actually don’t know much about something, their voice is even more important. So we’ve had somebody, uh, quite recently just just started in our business, so they don’t know everything about the organization, about what we do and the training products. And she’s been sitting there and she’ll go, can I just ask a question? And I’m really sorry. And it’s really basic and I probably should already know this. But, and then she’ll just ask the best question. But, you know, that she thinks it was ’cause she didn’t know. But actually she just got to the heart of the issue because we’d sort of just assumed, assumed lots of things. And so it can be, it can be really, really helpful.

[00:13:17] But. you pick on something there as well that there are some of us who overshare in meetings. And actually, I, I count myself as that ’cause I’ve always just really wanted to speak and, and have people listen. And I know that that’s not often very helpful. In fact, I do remember a piece of feedback I got from a, from some, well actually a really, um, a valuable mentor of mine, he said, I said, oh, how can I sort of improve the way I am with people and, you know, my leadership? And he said, oh, sometimes you need to keep your powder dry a bit more. So, like when you’re in a meeting, you don’t need to give your opinion on absolutely everything. Um, I was like, and that was, that was really helpful advice. And I’m really glad he said that.

[00:13:56] It was quite difficult to hear at the time. ‘Cause I suddenly went to this shame spiral of, oh my goodness, I’m dominating and I’m this, and I’m that, um, but yeah, actually that, was really helpful. Because the problem when someone is speaking up all the time, and you could see this, I dunno if you watched the Traitors, but, um, brilliant, brilliant tv. But there was one bloke who just constantly sharing his theory of he was a traitor and he wasn’t. And sometimes he was spot on. He absolutely got it right. But because he just was talking all the time and saying all these different things, it actually minimized his voice, because he hadn’t really quite worked out the social dynamics of how to share properly.

[00:14:33] **Claire:** Yeah, a hundred percent. I think there’s three aspects to this, really. There’s one thing about finding your voice. There’s another thing about using your voice, and then there’s this other thing about listening to other people’s voices. And knowing. It’s that nuance, isn’t it? Of thinking, okay, I’ve now found my voice. I know what I think about this situation. Right, I’m now using my voice because it feels the right time. I’m not overusing it, and I’m also looking around the room and thinking there’s somebody over there that actually might have something to add, and I’m not necessarily gonna put them on the spot, but actually if they speak, I’m gonna really listen. Or I’m gonna at least open the opportunity to the group to allow people to speak. Or I’m going to allow people to speak in other ways in the sense of if somebody finds it really hard to speak up in a meeting, I might say to them, perhaps ask ’em some questions beforehand, either privately or I might, um, email them or send ’em a WhatsApp or ask ’em to contact me after the meeting if anybody’s got any other thoughts. Also offering those opportunities, so really thinking about how else other people can share their voice.

[00:15:34] And I think you are right, it depends where you are in this journey. If you are really confident in your voice and really great at sharing your voice, actually finding that sweet spot of sharing it to the point that’s really useful for you and for others, but also not oversharing, because then as you say, it does the exact opposite. It diminishes your voice and it diminishes the voice of others. So there’s some real sweet spots in this.

[00:15:58] It’s a bit like, um. I’ll direct people to the, the podcast that we did together on confidence, and we talked about the stress curve and how I kind of think about the stress curve being very similar to the confidence curve in that sense of there’s a point that’s really like that sweet spot where you found your voice, you are using your voice, you are listening to others. It’s really allowing the team to function well. It’s making you feel really liberated and alive and like, yeah, feeling. But you’re not oversharing, you’re not suppressing others, you are not sitting there. Imposter syndrome, well, my voice doesn’t matter. You are kind of a bit like that lady that I was talking about before, rather than having your, your hand around your throat, you’re like, yeah, but you’re not suppressing everybody else. So there’s nobody else sitting in the room with a hand around the throat.

[00:16:41] And I think it’s all about that sweet spot. And about how you get to that. And I suppose it, it’s really, I suppose, the most useful starting point to this is to really think about, as a listener here, of where are you in this journey? Are you sitting there thinking, well, I know what I think, but I can’t use it. Or are you sitting there thinking, I literally sit there talking to people and thinking, I just don’t know what I think, I dunno what I stand for. I dunno who I am. Or are you like, yep. Know who I am, know what I stand for. Oh, hang on a minute. I’m really not considering other people’s voice here.

[00:17:14] And so I think it’s really useful to see where you are sitting and then to start saying, okay, I’m in this category. Now I need to start working on X, and then we can start to move forwards.

[00:17:25] **Rachel:** So how would you even start with somebody? How, how did you start to help this lady, you know, as a coach, gain that confidence or, or know herself even better? What was it that really helped her?

[00:17:36] **Claire:** So I think for, for her it was about really dialing backwards and working out what it was that she was trying to say. And really interestingly, she knew her voice. She always knew what she wanted to say. She just couldn’t say it. And that was around confidence. It was around imposter syndrome. It was around thinking that this inner critic and well, you are not good enough, you are never gonna be able to, you know that voice in your head saying, nobody wants to hear what you’ve got to say. So we worked really a lot on that area. And actually by really dampening down the inner critic, by doing some role plays together in a really safe environment, and I can hear almost every read, every listener going, no, thank you, I hate a role play. We all hate a role play.

[00:18:18] But actually what we did was, which was fascinating, there was, there was one, um, interaction that she really was very nervous of with a colleague. So I was the colleague and we did, we did some interactions with me. And then we did something called the empty chair, which you’ve probably done before as well, which is where you get somebody to be both sides of the conversation themselves. So they ask and answer themselves. And they literally turn as if they’re facing one way to talk to the person and they turn the other way to answer themselves, but obviously as the other person.

[00:18:51] And it was incredible because when she did this, she suddenly realized that the other person that she was so terrified of actually was like, oh, okay, that’s fine. I’ll take that away and have a think about it. She wasn’t judging her, she wasn’t overly interested in what she was saying. She was kind of just in her own paradigm, in her own story. And actually when she realized that she wasn’t going to be, this other person wasn’t gonna be obsessing about everything she said, and you know, like thinking she was such a bad person for saying it, she was like, oh, well, that was an easy conversation.

[00:19:22] And fascinatingly, she went and then had that conversation and we’d created some sort of scenarios of how the conversation might go and what might happen. And because it, we’d already kind of done this visualization, if you like, she’d already been there before, it was really easy. And instead of it being, she came back, she went, well, that was easy. I was like, oh, so how did it feel? She went just beyond easy, and because it was easy, dare I say, I almost enjoyed it. I didn’t think about it afterwards, and I wasn’t worried and I didn’t feel guilty for taking it. I didn’t feel, you know, and all of that.

[00:19:56] So there is an element of, even if you don’t want to do a role playing or you hate that side of things and you can’t do the empty chair because you haven’t got anybody to help you with that, even just standing in front of the mirror or talking to yourself and thinking I wonder what the person, if I say this, whatever it is, if I voice my opinion, I wonder what people are thinking when I say it? And the truth is that if you think about how you would feel if somebody said something, most of the time it’s that somebody says something and then you go, oh gosh, yes or Oh, I’m not sure I agree with that. And then you move on because most people are not thinking about you. That’s the truth. And just like you don’t think about most people, no, I’m not talking about you Rachel, I’m talking about us as general population, but you, as much as we don’t think about other people as much as, you know, as we imagine that they’re thinking about us, it’s really important that you’re aware of that.

[00:20:51] So for her, it wasn’t about finding her voice. She knew what, she knew, what her voice was. She couldn’t use her voice, hence the, the hand around the neck. And as soon as she realized actually that she could use her voice and we squashed the imposter syndrome and the self-doubt, and we increased her confidence and we practiced, it was home from home and dry.

[00:21:09] So I think there’s that element for, so if you, if your issues with using your voice, I would start in those areas and look at what’s stopping you using her voice and where you feel it in your body and how that would feel if it would different. And those things can help. And I think it’s, but I think if you don’t know what your voice is, that’s when I would go back to things like understanding what your values are, working out your purpose, looking at what your strengths lie. And if you don’t know any of that, there’s loads of exercises that we’ve talked about on previous podcasts together, or people can give me a, a shout out and I’m happy to send them some things, or I’m sure you’ve got some resources as well. You’ve got loads of amazing resources on, you’re not a frog that I know you send out to people.

[00:21:49] But there’s also this, you know, this sense of, if you know all of that about yourself, that’s really helpful. But if you can’t do any of that sometimes asking other people, what do I bring to the table? Why did you invite me here? Like, I remember, um, 18 years ago, I was, I just had a baby, I think I’ve told you this story before. And, um, BMJ asked me to come along to one of their big meetings to talk about a new products, which was BMJ Masterclass. And I literally sat in that meeting thinking. I dunno what to say. I have nothing to add. I dunno why I’m here. I’ve just had a baby. I don’t even really know my name. My boobs hurt. Like, this is just, what am I doing here? So I just smiled and nodded because I really felt like I didn’t have a voice. Not because they made it feel that way, just that’s how I felt.

[00:22:33] And then they invited me back and gradually I started to say, oh, perhaps we could do this, or maybe we should do that, or what about this? And they started to go, oh, that’s a good idea, or yeah, quite like that. And then I really listened to what they wanted and really listened to what they needed. And I still kept quite quiet, but then I gradually inputted more. And it, so sometimes it becomes an organic process and noticing when you’ve done it before and what’s really helped you get that to that point is really helpful as well.

[00:23:04] **Rachel:** There’s, there’s so much in, in what you said. One thing I’m taking from that is actually small, small steps are really good. Just like think, oh, maybe, maybe we could do that. Maybe we could try this or, or even just asking a question. If you don’t feel, you can say an opinion, asking a question actually, I think sometimes is, is even better than stating an an opinion, because it shows that you’ve listened, you’ve understood, and there’s something you want, you want clarification on.

[00:23:29] **Claire:** It brings me back to that colleague that you were talking about. She asked questions, and not only was that really useful for her, but it was really useful for you, because you’re like, oh, there’s the whole, there’s the gap. And that’s something we, again, it just helps. So, again, I think that’s a, a great way of, if you feel like you, you’re talking, you know, we’re talking about easy steps, but that’s a great way, if you really can’t voice because it feels too hard or you’re worried what that would mean or worried whether you’re along the wrong track, using a question at the right time can feel really helpful to all parties.

[00:24:00] **Rachel:** And we don’t question enough, do we? Because we make all these assumptions. Like I’ve got a really stupid example.

[00:24:06] I was at a, a I was at a, a sort of round table event yesterday that I’ve been invited to to think about, um, how to do wellbeing training in, in organizations, and, um. I arrived late because they’d forgot to send me the link, so everyone had been there and done introductions. By the time they’d remembered to email me the link, I was sort of 10 minutes late. So I, I come in and, and then half an hour later they’re going round asking something they said, right, let’s go round and ask people’s opinions on everything. So there I am and I jotted down a few things and I waited. And then just, just as that it was supposed to come to me, the chair started talking and she said, right, okay, so we’ve had this, this, and this. And I thought, Ooh, they didn’t ask me, but, but I’m here and they’ve invited me and they didn’t ask me. And I was like, oh, may, maybe they don’t wanna hear from me. And I started going, you know that stuff in your head that you go go on.

[00:24:51] So I thought, well. I think they wanted my opinion. So I put my hand up and the chair looked and she said, oh my goodness, Rachel, sorry you weren’t on my original list. Because of when we went round doing the invitation, you know, when we went round introducing ourselves because you, you got here like, yes, let’s hear from you, type thing.

[00:25:07] And so I’d been making all these assumptions that actually they didn’t really want to, but actually it was just a, a simple error. Or they just, you know, pe people forget, don’t they? And, and we make it very personal. So I was like, oh, they, they actually don’t want to hear from me now because I’m not important enough, or I’m not this enough, or that enough. And what you were saying about that, people really don’t think about you that much.

[00:25:29] I put something in our Facebook group recently, and by the way, if people wanna carry on these discussions and, and find more resources and stuff, we do have a Facebook group. I’ll stick that in the show notes. But it was about spotlight fallacy where people always think, you know, you’ll come home and this happens to me quite a lot. I’ll have said something and I think, and I’ll come home and like, oh, cringe. What did I say that was so awful? Oh, they’re gonna be thinking really badly of me.

[00:25:52] Well, the fallacy is A, it probably wasn’t as awful as I thought. And B, no one cares. No one is going home thinking Oh, even, even if I did say something that wasn’t bad, you know, they’d have gone, oh dear, okay, that probably wasn’t helpful. But they’re not like dwelling on it all night thinking, oh, that Rachel. Really, really, they don’t care. And I think sometimes we’ve gotta get over ourselves.

[00:26:11] And I think sometimes, and this is a bit controversial, but interesting to hear what you think, people that are very, very under confident and anxious about this. It, it’s almost, could be a form of vanity because you’re thinking about yourself so much that you won’t give your opinion when it’s really needed just in case you say the wrong thing and it dents your image.

[00:26:32] Um, I’ve always, I’ve always been sort the other way where I’ve said stuff maybe a bit too bluntly and that, and that come back and thought, oh, oh my goodness. But I do think actually you do need to just put yourself out there and that is a risk and that is vulnerable, and that does take courage and it takes getting over our self protect, it’s not vanities, it’s self protectiveness, I guess.

[00:26:55] **Claire:** Yeah, I think, I think that’s right in the sense of that self protectiveness. Because I think sometimes it can feel easier just to sit and not to say, and not to, just, just easier just to, to, to be on the sidelines and to not share your voice because of all the fears and the inner critic and all the rest of it. But actually, if we go back to the person I was talking about before, that feeling of having something around your neck of not sharing it is actually, it feels very stuck. It feels very like you’re trapped, you’re paralyzed. It’s actually a really uncomfortable feeling. And actually by doing the work, which is hard, I’m not gonna, you know, it’s not something, it’s not like you decide it today and it happens tomorrow. But doing it, the work in easy, manageable steps, actually, it’s liberating, it’s fun.

[00:27:45] And there’s nothing nicer. Well, there’s, there’s obviously. It’s one of the nicest things is to be an environment, whether it’s one-on-one or in a group, and to say something and it might be something profound or it might be something really small, and somebody smiles at you and so, or somebody Connects with what you said and say, oh yeah, I thought that, or, that’s really interesting, or I hadn’t thought of it that way, or just feeling valuable,

[00:28:08] because I think that one of the things that really helps us stay in our role to make us feel like we belong, to make us feel like that we are part of something is being valued and valuing others. And that sense of belonging, i, I feel maybe controversially is something that really is, we are losing in the NHS.

[00:28:28] And I find it really fascinating. The doctors that I work with that are happier in their roles are those that are really connected and valued by their teams and really value their teams back, and really love to hear what everyone’s got to say, and it’s this very psychologically safe place. So even though work is really hard and there’s a lot of, you know, work to do and demands and risk and all that, things that we, you know, doctors manage all day every day and healthcare professionals, actually that space feels so lovely. And a lot of that sense brings a sense of belonging.

[00:28:59] But actually I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people have a voice. They’re heard, they’re valued. So this is like a building block to help to create a culture that is actually really valuable. Not just for you, but for everybody that you are around. And that’s not just at work either. It’s for everybody. And you know, is interesting, I’m trying to do it more with the family as well. And I would probably say that I’m not as good as I want to be ’cause it’s a work in progress. But rather than me saying very didactically, right, this is what we are doing, I will perhaps say, what do people think about? I want to do something together As a family, I had these ideas, what ideas do you have? And actually it gives this sense of people being important and valuable.

[00:29:44] So even if you do know your voice by sharing it, that can be helpful. But also by holding back and listening to others like we were talking, talking as well, helps to give that sense of belonging, that value, that usefulness, that importance to the relationship that you’re having with somebody, and that I think is amazing.

[00:30:04] **Rachel:** Interestingly, I just, uh, had an amazing podcast with, with Greg McEwen talking to Tim Ferriss and he was talking about the fact that actually everything, all arguments, all discussions boil down to do I matter and have I been heard. So, you know, bottom line, if we all hear her feel heard, we all feel valued, then that’s gotta be good for everybody.

[00:30:27] I guess that the issue comes is when we have to speak up about something that is either controversial or is in direct conflict with somebody else, or is raising an issue that other people won’t want to hear. Because it’s one thing just contributing a, a fairly benign opinion to a conversation. But what happens when, and this happens a lot, and I think doctors in particular really struggle with this when they can see there’s something going on that is, is, it’s not working for their team or the patients and stuff, but maybe it clashes with the, the management of the hospital and the, the targets they have or something and, and, and actually raising that in a way that they will be heard is really hard.

[00:31:10] And as I’m saying that, I’m thinking actually the issue is like, you, you can’t control whether someone hears it or not and their reaction can you? You can only control what, what you do. So what, what advice do you give people in those circumstances?

[00:31:22] **Claire:** I think you’ve hit the nail on the head and that’s exactly what I was thinking about in the, it is around this control piece. Because actually, if you find your voice, then you use your voice, there is risk that comes with that, especially when you’re in a more controversial situation or where there’s difficulty with, you know, going on around you in an environment that you perhaps less have less control on.

[00:31:42] So your voice might be rejected. And I think the first thing to say is that’s okay. And actually the, it’s this finding your voice bit is not about everybody doing what you say at all times. It’s about having that sense of, that you are bringing something to the table. Even if say the powers that be completely ignore you, then there’s another piece of work of about coping with that rejection that it doesn’t feed into the inner critic. It just is like, okay, well people don’t need to hear me. I’m giving a diverse opinion.

[00:32:11] And then that feeds into that bit. Well actually. I’ve done my bit, I’ve shared, I’ve added my value. It’s not wanted right now. I can’t control what’s happening in the hospital or the wider GP community, but actually I’ve still given something. And it might be knocked back this time, but there’ll be another time where actually it will be maybe taken on board or maybe I need to listen to what they’re saying. Maybe actually right now, my opinion or my thoughts are heard, but maybe they’re not relevant right now. Or maybe they’re not useful and maybe there’s learning for me in that.

[00:32:45] But it is really important to also step back and say, actually, do I have control of this situation? Do I have influence of this situation? If I’ve got no control and no influence, actually, maybe this is a time that I don’t need to use my voice. Maybe I can have a thought process about something that’s going on that was outta my control and just vent with somebody that, oh my God, it’s so annoying or so frustrating, what’s going on. And that’s still using your voice, but in a different way, rather than like bashing your head against a brick wall.

[00:33:15] You know, so it’s, it’s this understanding the nuance of using your voice. And understanding it might be rejected, looking at where the control and the influence is in the situation, pulling back from not using your voice in that sort of, if it’s not the sweet spot of using your voice, and recognizing when to use it and how to use it.

[00:33:34] So there’s loads in this, and I think actually a lot of it for me is about doing it your way, because I think there is this sense that you have to be loud and you have to, you know, if you think something, you have to fight it, you have to share it, and you have to get what you want. And that’s not what this is about at all. This is about listening and hearing, and sharing in a way that feels appropriate at the time, in a way that suits you. So you might not wanna be speaking out in public, you might wanna be doing it to social media or maybe on a WhatsApp or on a one-to-one conversation or to a partner to practice it first, or you know, so there might be lots of different ways. Or you might be able to share it in a meeting then if you are good at that and able to be the more extrovert way, maybe thinking about when is this useful? When am I actually drowning other people out? And that’s not useful, or when am I actually talking too much? When am I actually banging my head against a brick wall, because actually adding something here adds nothing because it’s out of my control? And just using it in a way that’s the sweet spot.

[00:34:37] **Rachel:** I like that. You’re actually talking about picking your battles, aren’t you? So actually, don’t, you know, don’t contribute to everything if you don’t need to and you’re not gonna add anything. But just pick the thing that you, you do need to contribute to and be very authentic.

[00:34:50] **Claire:** But not in a defeatist way. It’s not like, oh, pick your battles. It’s actually like, yeah, I’m choosing where to use my voice in a way that feels most productive to me and to the others around me. And that feels empowering as opposed to defeatist, like, Ugh, well, there’s no point. There is a point, and I think that’s the point I want to get across to everyone is every single person here adds value, and every single person, their voice matters. But it’s about using it in the right way, finding it, and listening to other voices. And reassessing what you’re thinking. So it’s that sense of learning and growing and listening that comes with using your voice.

[00:35:27] **Rachel:** I think there needs to be a bit of a health warning around this as well, particularly for doctors because I, the podcast we did, oh my goodness, I mean, years ago with, um, Dr. Jo Bircher, who’s, um, wonderful GP in, in Manchester. and is a, a lead for the GP excellence program in Greater Manchester. And she was talking about leadership and I think doctors have a, have a great deal of power and, you know, senior professionals have a great deal, deal of power. If you are in a group and you are the most senior person there, if you voice an opinion, it’s then very difficult for anyone who feels themselves to be below you in the hierarchy to then contradict that opinion or, or voice something different.

[00:36:09] So I think you do have to be conscious of the context in, in which you’re speaking, and sometimes even just hold back and, and, and go last if you are one of the more senior people in the room so that you are encouraging other people to say something. And actually realize that you probably have quite a lot more power than you think you do. So some of those throwaway comments might not be quite so helpful.

[00:36:33] So I think that’s another reason to, to keep your powder dry and, and, and to pick your battles because if you have to weigh on on everything, you might end up making someone else fill under mind when he didn’t need to.

[00:36:44] **Claire:** I think, yeah, I think that’s really interesting actually. I, I do a lot of work with corporates. And I went to, um, a meeting recently with somebody that I thought was like, you know, a little bit scary. Like they were lovely, but they were, you know, in their position on their CV, that’s quite a scary position. And they were so skillful because actually what they did is that they just were firstly really down to earth, but then they, they held back from the conversation, just like you’re talking about, allowed the newer voices to be heard, and then they’re like, oh yeah, I really like what you’re saying. And you know, just sort of, so giving that value back to people that they’ve been heard. And then they shaped the conversation and added their two pennies piece. And then it was like everybody was important in being there.

[00:37:26] So I think that that’s really useful. But I also think we need to go back to that person that’s sitting there who’s thinking, I just don’t know what I think. Because again, it can be really hard. Like you were talking about, you know, that you got missed in that meeting yesterday. But some people I think sit there and think, I just don’t know what I think in this scenario. And being asked that can actually be really terrifying. So if you’re sitting there and somebody says, Claire, what do you think? And you think, I dunno what I think, I just dunno what I think. And I think that’s when you start to need to be thinking more about the purpose, the values, the strengths, but also starting to search, this just might not be an area that I know much about. And coming back to that questioning bit or saying, you know, or giving some quick, having some phrases in your toolkit that you can say, I think some really interesting points have been raised. I think I’d like to just go away into a bit more research to really understand where I sit on this and then get back to you. Or you know, just really sort of thinking about. Actually, you don’t have to weigh in with something just because you’re put on the spot.

[00:38:33] And I remember as a, as a child, I used to belong to this youth group and we used to go round and you had to say something at different points. And I remember being terrified, like, what am I gonna say? What am I gonna say? And what if someone’s stolen my point? Or you know, in your feedback at the end of, of a meeting or something and everyone says, well, let’s go around the group and talk about feedback. And actually, sometimes it’s really hard to know what you think and you know, so I think just taking a step back and, and it’s okay to say actually the points that have been raised are really useful. Or actually, I really agree with what so-and-so’s saying. Or I just wanna take some time just to process this and I’ll get back to you. All of that is fine. And that’s finding your voice as well, being able to know what you’re thinking right now. So just listening to that moment of Urgh, I don’t know. That’s okay to say. I don’t know That’s good.

[00:39:21] **Rachel:** I’m just thinking like back to consultation skills. I, we, I used to teach it a lot at Cambridge. And yeah, we used to teach students summarize, yeah, just summarize if, if you’re not quite sure where you are in a consultation, just say, okay, that’s interesting. So I’ve heard this and this and this is that right? And in my head, what I’m not sure about is this. And you know, you can raising a question is almost as useful, probably, actually, I think sometimes more useful than stating your opinion. And no one will ever think you are an idiot for raising a useful question in, in the group, and that that does just show some understanding of the situation.

[00:39:57] And I think some people, their skill is rather than having a massively, massive opinion about something, their skill is listening to other people’s opinions, synthesizing that, saying, well, what I’m hearing in the room is this, but the thing that’s missing for me is this, that I don’t know the answer to, does anyone know? Type thing.

[00:40:14] **Claire:** And it is that vulnerability, isn’t it? And is that that confidence to being vulnerable and to know that you are not actually being judged by that, but you are actually being revered by that. So I mean, like one of the, um, I run, um, a campaign called hashtag Career Inspiration, which features women with incredible careers and talking about their career mantra and how they’ve, you know, got there.

[00:40:36] And, um, I featured Superintendent Rona Hunt. Um, she, she’s superintendent of Metropolitan Police, so she’s working in a very male environment. She’s an incredible person. And her mantra was all around vulnerability. And it was about, you know, not being afraid of vulnerability. So she can, if someone like her can be vulnerable in a room full of high powered men, often, and actually ask questions and share, I don’t knows, and I’m interested in, but I don’t understand, that is incredibly powerful. And if someone like her can do it, we can do it too.

[00:41:11] And I think that’s that sense of, you know, knowing when you don’t know, but leaning into that and asking if other people know is really, again, that’s a brilliant use of your voice. Because it not only shows incredible leadership skills, but it also empowers everybody in the room, and actually allows you not to have to pretend, and it takes this feeling of having this hand around your neck. I’ve got to say something actually, it’s that it’s liberating.

[00:41:38] **Rachel:** There’s a book recently out by Adam Grant called Think Again. And uh, it’s really powerful message. I think, you know, we think as leaders you could have very strong opinions about this and that, but actually, the ability to have an opinion, and then people tell you different things, and the ability to then change your mind is really important. It shows clear, flexible thinking. And the person who just sticks to this one thing, despite all the evidence of the country or whatever, whatever that, that is not actually very, very helpful anymore. So, so yeah, I think, you know, vulnerability and modeling this in leadership, really important.

[00:42:14] Claire, we’re nearly outta time, but I, I do want to just throw a scenario at you. What would you say to someone who, yeah, I mean, I’m just thinking maybe a partnership meeting or a sort of meeting in a, a practice or a department where there’s some contentious issues being discussed and you do have an opinion, but you’re just so worried about it, there’s some. Fairly aggressive people in the room, possibly. You’ve gotta work with all these people. How would you help somebody prepare for that? And you’ve already said things like, you know, you’d role play it out, you, you’d deal with the inner critic. But are there any quick tips and things that people could grab onto in the moment or maybe just to prepare for that meeting in advance that you would also suggest?

[00:42:55] **Claire:** I think one of the things in that scenario, to be honest, when it’s that aggressive and that confrontational, is to think about what’s my role here? Because sometimes your role is to lean in and to mediate, and other times it’s to sit back and to watch and to listen. So if I was in that meeting, I would probably sit back and watch and listen and think about the paradigms and the situation of what was happening here. Why is this person yelling at this person? And it’s actually thinking about, well, what’s their story here? Are they angry because they don’t feel heard? Are they angry because they’ve got a lot of frustration and they don’t feel respected? Or are they angry because things keep going wrong and people don’t keep doing what they say they’re gonna do? Like what is going on? Maybe they’ve had some bad situations happen in the past because something similar to this has happened and they’re actually quite right to be this angry. Or maybe there’s something else that’s going on to really try and understand it.

[00:43:47] And then look at the response from the other person and see, you know, what’s happening here? Are they being put in victim mode? Are they putting themselves in victim mode as the other person, the persecutor? Like just be clever. Use some tools like the Drama Triangle, which I know you talk about on your Shapes Toolkit. I. Use some tools like sitting back and look at paradigms and understanding people’s story. And then come back to the scenario later or later in the meeting and say, what I’m hearing and what I’m seeing is this, I dunno how that’s sitting with people. How can we move forwards? What would be useful here? As opposed to trying to come in with the solutions, try to use some, perhaps some coachy questions that add out to move forwards.

[00:44:29] So that’s one scenario where you are kind of sort of sitting back. Watching listening, but really actively listening, and then coming in with some what questions, which will help to dissipate the feeling here that’s the tension that’s in the room.

[00:44:44] There might be another scenario where that’s happening. You’re like, okay, actually I’ve been asked my opinion, I need to share my opinion, and I liked to say the elephant in the room. And actually to say something like, and this feels hard, but actually it’s brilliant because it disarms the situation and fizzles it. It’s just to say it feels like there’s a lot of anger between us all, and it feels very destructive right now. I think we need to move forward to this being more constructive. I think my view at the moment is this, but I’m also hearing that your view is that. And that they’re both important, but we’ve gotta work out how to move forwards.

[00:45:22] And another just a really interesting tip, if, if it’s all really messy and you’re just like this, this is just a disaster, is to get each person to, so if there’s two people who are like just really conflict conflicting with each other in a meeting is to get a whiteboard and for one person to get a pen and they must have a pen in their hand, ’cause that’s quite empowering. While they’ve got the pen in their hand, they speak and they write about all the things that are the issue that they are talking about. And it’s this and it’s that. And I don’t like that. And this is, and they write a list of all the issues and nobody else in the room speaks. They just get to write their stuff down. And then, the other person that’s on the other side of the coin does exactly the same and nobody else speaks. And then you look at the two boards as a group. And perhaps somebody more neutral is says, okay, what John is saying, what so and so is saying is this, and what so and so is saying is that.

[00:46:16] And suddenly everybody’s being heard. And say, okay, well there’s actually some really interesting points being raised here. So that’s, there’s that sense of, there’s the power in the pen that actually this person that’s screaming and yelling at you often just needs to be heard. But the other person that’s perhaps being yelled at or screamed at and wants to yell back as well also needs to be heard. So how do you do that? And that’s a really interesting technique. So there’s this sort of sit back technique. There’s the weigh in technique, which I think can be harder and more disruptive. And then there’s the just actually using some sort of tool in that meeting to say, okay, this is the elephant in the room, how do we gonna move forwards? Let’s try the pen in your hand tool.

[00:46:55] **Rachel:** There’s a slight variation on that, which you could do afterwards. You could say to the person with a pen, I want you to write down now what that person’s really worried about and their issues. So they then have to start saying, what’s the issue for that other person? So they suddenly have to put themselves into that, into that situation. And often, once the other person’s under knows that the other person really does understand the issue, then it’s like then they can set back. Okay. No, you do understand the issue. Be because you understand the issue, we can now, we can now move forward.

[00:47:21] And I did a podcast recently actually with, with Lassie Lawless about how to tell people things they don’t like. And she came up with three really helpful principles is number one, have un unconditional positive regard for that person. So always assume that they mean well as well, even if they yell, it is from a place where they, they, they do have good motivation. And the second was always just show empathy for that other person. You know, even if you don’t agree with them, you can always have empathy for them as a person. And then the third thing you need is, is authenticity to actually say what you actually think and, and don’t fudge it. But that’s easier to do if you’ve said, gosh, I can see how hard this, this must be. And I, I can see all those different points, but actually this is actually what I think. And you know, and it’d be really nice to, um, come to some sort of agreement.

[00:48:10] The other thing that I found quite helpful, and, and you can do this in meetings with people, is to totally depersonalize things. Go actually guys, if, if we just like took the people away, just looked at the issue and we had the issue in a box on the table, what is the issue here? You know how many points we’ve got, or, you know, the rotor or this or that, let, let’s look at it as if none of us were attached to the issue. If it was with solving it for somebody else and how, how would we do that? That can be quite helpful sometimes as well, can’t it? But here we’re, we’re now getting into group coaching, aren’t we?

[00:48:40] **Claire:** Exactly. And I think also the other thing is a lot of, a lot of conflict and difficulty finding your voice can often sit in the change situation, as in when stuff is changing, which tends to be a hard time for people to find their voice or not to share their voice in a positive way. So again, we did another podcast on that, which there’s lots in that about change and managing change and coping with your own feelings towards change and other people’s towards change. And again, there’s a lot about finding your voice in change. So I think that’s another aspect just to have a think about as well, which perhaps we can touch on again another time.

[00:49:11] **Rachel:** Yeah, that would be good. And I, I know something I’d like to touch on with you another time. I think throughout time is about intuition and how, you know, how you know stuff. ‘Cause that’s something I’m really thinking about. ‘Cause often I do feel intuitively that something is, is is the right way, on the wrong way. And the times in the past year when I haven’t trusted my intuition, it’s been a disaster,

[00:49:32] **Claire:** Absolutely it is. Do you know it’s all about that. It really is. And you know, it’s a shame we’re running out of time because actually that is, it. It is about trusting yourself. If you get that ooh feeling, follow that. If you get that point, I’ve got something to say here, follow it, because actually you are valuable and you’re important. And trusting that gut, feeling that instinct is really powerful.

[00:49:54] **Rachel:** Great. So Claire, if you had three top tips for people, what would they

[00:49:56] be?

[00:49:57] **Claire:** Wow. Interestingly, I think it would be your voice matters. That’s number one. Spend time getting to know yourself is number two. I’m actually gonna do four. I’m sorry, Rachel

[00:50:06] **Rachel:** I’ll allow you one more.

[00:50:07] **Claire:** Three is trust your instincts because I think that is really powerful. And number four is value other people’s voice.

[00:50:14] **Rachel:** thank you. And the best way to do that is just by listening and asking questions, isn’t it? And we can all listen and ask questions. You don’t need any particular training to do that. You just need to, if you’re me, sit on your hands, close your mouth, and not allow yourself to speak for a couple of minutes. Great. So Claire, um, where can people find out more about you and your work if they want to?

[00:50:35] **Claire:** Yeah, so I’m all over social media and people contact me every single day. So please do get in touch. I’m on Instagram, which is at Dr. Claire Kaye Coaching. I’m all over LinkedIn at Dr. Claire Kaye. And if you check out my website, it’s drclairekaye.com. And there’s lots of, um, bits and free bits and pieces on there, all links, lots of podcasts and articles I’ve done. And also you could got a link there, um, to the contact page so you can get in touch.

[00:50:59] **Rachel:** Do join me in the Facebook group if you want to. We’ll put that in the, link in the show notes as well. And Claire, thank you so much for being with us and we’ll see you soon.

[00:51:07] **Claire:** See you soon.

[00:51:08] **Rachel:** Thanks for listening. Don’t forget, we provide a self coaching CPD workbook for every episode. You can sign up for it via the link in the show notes. And if this episode was helpful, then please share it with a friend. Get in touch with any comments or suggestions at hello@youarenotafrog.com. I love to hear from you. And finally, if you’re enjoying the podcast, please rate it and leave a review wherever you’re listening. It really helps. Bye for now.