12th December, 2023

How to Increase Your Confidence and Impact

With Dr Claire Kaye

Photo of Dr Claire Kaye

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On this episode

If you’re like most people, you’ll have experienced moments when your confidence wavers, leaving you unsure of yourself and holding back from reaching your full potential. But what if there was a way to increase your confidence and make a greater impact in your personal and professional life?

This week, Dr Claire Kaye joins Rachel to explore the power of confidence and how it influences our lives. They dive into the common challenges we face when it comes to confidence, whether it’s feeling underconfident, lacking self-belief, or dealing with the negative self-talk that holds us back.

But this episode isn’t just about identifying the problem – it’s about finding practical solutions. Claire and Rachel discuss strategies to boost your confidence in a genuine and authentic way, helping you navigate through life’s uncertainties and excel in various areas. They emphasise the importance of knowing yourself, understanding your values, and embracing vulnerability as a pathway to personal growth and success.

If you’re tired of letting self-doubt hold you back, this episode offers valuable insights and actionable tips to help you increase your confidence, impact, and overall fulfilment.

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About the guests

Dr Claire Kaye photo

Reasons to listen

  • Learn practical strategies to boost your confidence and make a greater impact in your personal and professional life.
  • Explore common challenges related to confidence, like feeling underconfident, lacking self-belief, and dealing with negative self-talk.
  • Discover how to be more confident in an authentic and genuine way, without resorting to acting or disingenuous behaviour.

Episode highlights


Confidence and positive outcomes


What a severe lack of confidence can do


What is confidence?


What makes people lose their confidence


Building your confidence


Fear of failure


How environment affects confidence




Tackling your inner critic


Claire’s 10 top tips for building confidence


Where to find Claire

Episode transcript

[00:00:00] Rachel: Confidence is one of those things, which can’t feel elusive. Some people have it in spades, whereas others struggled to see in themselves what other people see. And we’ve all met that one colleague who’s maybe just a little too confident. We all struggled with confidence from time to time. But the good news is that there are practical ways that we can build it up. This week. Dr. Claire Kaye is back to define what we mean by confidence and walk us through some surprisingly simple techniques to tackle your inner critic when it tells us we’re just not good enough.

[00:00:35] ,If you’re in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you’re feeling stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options. I’m Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog.

[00:00:52] Claire: I’m Dr. Claire Kaye. I’m an executive career coach specializing in career development and also perimenopause and menopause in the workplace, and I’m also a former GP.

[00:01:00] Rachel: It is brilliant to have you back, Claire. Thank you for coming. And listeners who are regular listeners to the podcast will know that we’ve had Claire on several times, most recently talking about menopause, which had a fantastic response from listeners. And as part of that, you talked about confidence and how our confidence can dip with that within the menopause.

[00:01:20] But I think confidence is a really important issue for all of us, not just people who are going through the menopause. And I have really noticed that confidence for doctors is a real issue, which is kind of surprising, I think. ‘Cause when people think of doctors, they often think of very, very confident people who, who know their stuff. But more and more I’m coming across people who, who really suffer with a, a lack of confidence in a lot of different areas. They might be very supremely confident in one area, but they’re not in other areas, and I certainly can identify that in myself.

[00:01:52] Claire: Yeah, I think it’s really common and I think that a lot of people sort of wear a mask where they are really come across as being really confident but don’t feel confident inside. That’s one aspect. And or are really confident in one area of their life, but perhaps not so in other areas. So, you know, you mentioned that doctors come across as really confident, um, which is really interesting actually, because I have a lot of doctors as clients and particularly, and I don’t mean this stereotypically, but particularly my female doctor clients, actually, one of the big things they come to me saying is I just don’t feel confident. And not necessarily with the patients, but it’s about, um, you know, they’re confident maybe in their decision making, but they might not be confident in how to move forward their career or how to interact with their family or what else, you know, whether they actually bring anything to the table, whether they add value.

[00:02:41] And that’s not just, uh, women in their perimenopausal, menopausal years. This is younger women. Um, and I have also lots of men who come to see me who maybe don’t label it saying that, you know, that my confidence isn’t as as good. But when they actually, we get down to the nitty gritty of things often it’s a really loud situation of a really loud negative self-talk or in a critic that’s really sort of taking over their thinking, making them feel that they can’t achieve things, which feeds into them feeling like they have low confidence, even if they don’t have the words to say, actually, my confidence is low, because a lot of people find it difficult to say I don’t feel confident.

[00:03:16] So I thought it would be really useful to have a think about confidence. And really think about what it is, what it means to be confident, what’s a good level of confidence, and then to really think about some practical aspects of confidence and how to be more confident in a way that doesn’t feel fake or not fitting with your personality.

[00:03:34] Because I think that’s the other thing is that sometimes confidence can come across as acting and, and very disingenuous when you are interacting with people. And that is, for me, one of the worst ways to deal with confidence, because actually it creates really negative interactions for both parties. So this is about trying to find out what confidence is and then thinking about how you could be more confident in a really authentic, positive way that actually feeds into a positive outcome for you, whatever that might be.

[00:04:06] Rachel: Yeah, it’s interesting about that stuff around overconfidence ’cause sort of the, you know, the devil’s advocate in me is going, well, you know, why do we wanna teach people to be more confident when actually all the literature I’m reading about at the moment is about questioning things, about being able to change your mind, about showing vulnerability. So what we are doing, trying to teach people to be more confident when sometimes it seems that over the confidence is the problem in life with a lot of people.

[00:04:32] Claire: Where, yeah, but I might counter that actually, because I think sometimes it takes even more confidence to be vulnerable or to be brave or to say the elephant in the room, because actually sometimes it’s easier just to sit back and go, you know, oh yes, I agree, or actually I think blah. But actually to be able to say, you know what I’m feeling at the moment, like, I can’t do this because it might affect my overall wellbeing. That takes a huge amount of bravery, courage, and confidence to say that. So I don’t know. I think sometimes we think of confidence as this nemesis sometimes actually as a negative thing as being, and there’s a difference between confidence and arrogance.

[00:05:12] So. I, I kind of like to think about this a bit like the stress curve. I dunno if you, the listeners have heard of the stress curve. It’s a really common diagram. If you Google it, it comes, if you put in stress curve, you can see what I’m talking about. But essentially what that curve does is it’s a, a normal, um, distribution type curve. And it’s saying that if we take from the stress point of view, if you have too little stress that’s not good, then there’s sort of an optimum level of stress, which is, you know, really where you want to be, which is kind of going up the curve. And then when you hit the top and then start to go down the other side, that’s a little bit too much stress where if we were thinking about stress as a concept, you’d be thinking, well, am I heading to burnout? And then there’s the very negative as you come down the other side of the curve side of it.

[00:05:52] And I kind of think this is a bit like confidence in the sense that too little confidence really, it’s very negative for you and for other parties, whether that’s your home life or your work life. There’s an optimum level of confidence, which allows you to be vulnerable and helps you to be brave, to take on challenge to interact, to have that, bringing that kindness into your role in whatever aspect of your life. And then there’s too much confidence where you’re a bit like a bit cocky, you know, a bit like we know it, all that sort of thing, which is starting to grate on people. Maybe not create good interactions from a patient doctor point of view. Bits of know it all, a bit paternalistic. And then there’s the, the red zone I call it, where you are just, you know, real arrogance.

[00:06:35] So I suppose what I want to try and direct people to is this optimum level, which is this balance of a confidence that isn’t arrogancea, which leads into a bravery, which allows you to understand yourself for who you are. That authenticity, which allows you to do things that help you and others and help you reach your own potential.

[00:06:58] Rachel: That’s a lovely description, Claire, thank you. I love that comparison with the stress curve and we’ll make the stress curve available to people. It’s one of the, the handouts that we use a lot and people just being able to sort of situate where they are on the stress curve can be really helpful, and I love thinking of confidence like that because yes, the problem with overconfidence is that you then have a lack of insight into your own ability perhaps, and that can, that can cause as many problems, maybe as a lack of confidence.

[00:07:28] Although I would say that whenever we’ve, we’ve employed people through the business or I’ve worked with people, it is really hard to work with someone who has an extreme lack of confidence, because that can really manifest in, well, A, not not doing what they need to do, but then maybe not being so honest about it, or fudging things, or not trying and not taking initiative, which is really difficult to deal with.

[00:07:55] But as I’m saying that, conversely, someone who is overconfident doesn’t know their limitations, also very difficult to deal with. So actually there’s this whole confidence thing. It’s, it’s a, it’s a big calibration, isn’t it?

[00:08:05] Claire: It really is. And I think actually it’s, it’s kind of interesting to lean into people that are underconfident and overconfident. And I mean that lean into try and finding out their paradigm of why they’re feeling like that. Because often people are underconfident because they don’t have the training or they don’t have, they, they’re in the wrong role and it’s not actually playing to their strengths and, and vice versa for overconfident people.

[00:08:27] And I find that overconfidence, um, leads to lack of listening, which causes problems. Whereas under confidence something, there’s something really exciting about enabling somebody that’s under confident to reach their potential, not by you doing anything, but allowing them to work out what their strengths are and to lean, and that’s what I mean, and to lean into that.

[00:08:49] And often I, I find that a lot of people who are under confident actually label it a bit like, oh, I’m under confident so I can’t do it. But actually they’re not under confident. They really know what their worth is. It’s just that they’ve got really loud negative self-talk, which is kind of grinding them down. And actually it’s really challenging to fight that all day. And it’s really difficult to not, you know, believe that. And we’ll talk about what, what I mean by that. You know, negative self-talk, ’cause some people will really know about that and other people will be less, um, clear about that, but.

[00:09:18] So, I dunno, I, I kind of think it’s kind of a great challenge to embrace, but obviously the optimum is the optimum level of confidence where somebody is able to communicate and, um, I suppose this is what we’re trying to do as doctors where we are trying to give a, a, a communication level to people that allows ’em to feel safe with us, but that nurturing kind sign so that they feel heard.

[00:09:40] And that’s what we’re trying to get in all parts of our life because I think a lot of doctors are brilliant consulters, and have that beautiful optimum level of confidence in that part of their life with a patient, but in other parts it’s less so. And that can be really detrimental to wellbeing, to career progression to mindset, to really thriving in all parts of your life and really enjoying and being present with your family and all those types of things.

[00:10:06] Rachel: So Claire, would you define confidence as being the things that we tell ourselves and self-talk, or is it more than just that?

[00:10:12] Claire: Well, I obviously knew I was going to talk to you about this, so I looked it up and I thought it’d be interesting to see what the actual definition is. So, um, this is what I found as a definition, which was the quality of being certain of your abilities, influenced by people, experiences, and thoughts. And I think that’s really interesting that it’s influenced by people, experiences, and thoughts. Because, you know, a lot of the time we might go into something feeling quite conf, you know, confident or, you know, maybe you’re doing a presentation or presenting a, you know, you’ve got a policy that you’ve created or I don’t know, thinking about something that’s happening clinically that you are perhaps giving a suggestion around. And then somebody comes in and kind of goes, I’m not sure about that, Claire. And suddenly, whew, you know, all that confidence that you have, gone. Or somebody says, oh, that’s really interesting. Tell me more. And it’s exactly the same piece of work, but a different approach to it. And that can completely alter our confidence.

[00:11:06] Experiences. So again, I think that’s really interesting that they mentioned this, that it’s influenced my experience because if I’ve had a very negative experience given a talk and I’ve tripped up the stairs, which I mean I’m always falling over, so it’s not an impossibility that that would happen. I might then feel really under confident walking up onto stage to do something, whereas before I would’ve felt really confident.

[00:11:27] And, and thoughts, I think is a massive one, which we’ll come to. And, and I think that really feeds into that CBT model of our thoughts really affecting our feelings and our feelings really affecting our behaviors. And that sort of can be a very positive cycle or a very negative one depending on what our thoughts are doing.

[00:11:44] So there’s a lot in that and I think that really does challenge our confidence. So it’s, it’s about, I think trying to create a safety net of our own confidence so that those external features are less present and we are then able to sort of have this sort of inner peace and a calm that comes with our confidence so that if the external things are changing, we can actually go actually, it’s okay if I pull up the stairs. Everyone will laugh for a minute and it’s fine. Or if I have a negative thought, I’ll just reframe it and that’ll be okay. Or actually, do you know what, if Jane doesn’t like what I’m saying, actually that’s okay. I’ll really listen to what she’s got to say. Maybe there’s some learning there and I can think about how I might do this differently, but perhaps, somebody else will think that there’s actually some really interesting bits here that we can take forwards, which suddenly my confidence doesn’t feel quite as threatened.

[00:12:32] Rachel: Yeah, as you’re saying that, I’m, I getting this picture in my mind of a, of a sailing boat without a, what’s that thing? They put sens sens board down that sort of keeps it on track so that the wind can’t just. Well, there’s a rudder, but there’s a sens board in the middle, isn’t there? So this is my very limited experience.

[00:12:47] So if, if the wind, if the wind blows too hard, it’s very helpful for riding the boat after it’s capsized, but it stops it. If you didn’t have the centerboard, any gust of wind would just blow it, blow it wherever. But whereas if you’ve got your sensible down, you’ve got your ruddy, you can harness the wind. So it’s not that you’re ignoring people’s comments or. What other people think or anything, but you know where you are headed and you can take that into account and, and adjust, but you’re not beholden to it, are you? You’ve got that internal security and that, that confidence or you know, your, your level of confidence.

[00:13:21] ’cause there might be some times where you go into something thinking, well actually I’m not that confident here. Therefore I listen to these people more than if I go in here and I actually, I really know, know this so I’ll take that into account a little bit. So it, it’s a very, it’s, it’s a very flexible thing and I guess it takes quite a flexible mindset.

[00:13:38] Claire: Yeah, I think so. But I think it, it takes a, this sense of really knowing yourself, you know, so that, you know, really knowing that actually I’m okay if I make mistakes, I’ll learn. Um, I’m okay if I haven’t got this quite right. There’s growth here, or, um, this is a starting point. I know it’s only a draft format or actually, you know, I really do need to take on board some learning here and how can I do it differently?

[00:14:05] You know, I think it comes from that sense of actually I’m okay with who I am and, and I think a lot of people find that really difficult to be okay with who they are, or don’t even know who they are. And, and I think that comes back down to some even more basic work, which is around a very important work around, you know, knowing what your values are, knowing what your definition of success is, knowing you know what your purpose is, understanding what you stand for, making sure that when you are, you know, if, when you understand your values, that you bring them into your day-to-Day life and all of that kind of helps to study the boat and what was it called? A centerboard helps to give you the centerboard.

[00:14:43] I, I, I tend to say with clients that I like to think about people, it’s not such a, um, a beautiful analogy, but as a post in a fence, you know, one of those cement posts. And actually. When you are feeling confident, you are a strong cement post. And when the wind comes or a storm brews, instead of you being knocked over, you might have a little sway in you, but actually you are not knocked over.

[00:15:07] So that’s kind of how I like to think about it in the sense that when you know who, what you stand for and who you are, and you build your confidence to that optimum zone, when the winds come, when the negativity comes, when you need to learn, actually that’s fine. I’m still standing. I’ve taken this on board and I’ve grown as opposed to being knocked over.

[00:15:27] And I think that, you know, whichever analogy you like or if you’ve got your own analogy, that’s really vital. That’s what one of the things that makes confidence really important. It just helps you live your life better, um, having that optimum level and happier and more content. And who doesn’t want that? I think we all want that, particularly when you’re working in the NHS. In a stressful environment, understanding that actually you can be happier by being optimum confident, actually could be really quite a nice thing to do.

[00:15:55] Rachel: What makes people lose their confidence? Because I’ve observed that, that people often, as they get older, you think they get more confident, but often they get less confident.

[00:16:03] Claire: And, and some of that, and, and we won’t go into this today because we’ve talked about it on another, you know, the other podcast that we were talk, you mentioned before, some of that is around hormonal changes. But I think also there’s a lot of environmental factors that affect confidence. And you know, some of it is around what’s happening outside of your, you know, working life in the sense that, you know, you may have a lot of stresses going on with older family members, younger family members, other people in your life that really does zap your energy levels, which makes you tired or, which makes things harder.

[00:16:34] But also I think sometimes, as things are changing and coping with change can feel just really tiring. And if everybody around you, if you’re in a, in a work environment that is, um, you know, very supportive, very motivating, where you feel like you belong, all of that helps you to feel confident and valued and strong and able to be vulnerable and psychologically safe and all of that. But if you are in an environment that’s toxic where you are, or you are overworked or you are exhausted all the time, it’s very challenging to be confident. It’s very difficult to feel, even if you just take it off, you know, if you had a bad night’s sleep, imagine everything in your life is the same. The next day it’s just harder to be as confident as you were the day before, just is because we don’t have the resilience.

[00:17:22] So I think that as we get older, life often gets more complicated and, and our roles are, you know, we have more responsibility, we have more pressure in and out of work. And that’s not true for everybody. But that’s, that’s a general, I think, approach. And I think also there’s this tendency of the grass is always greener, and you know, looking at the bright young things that are coming through who seem more confident and bubbly and perhaps have skill sets that we don’t, even if it’s in things like social media or technology and perhaps, perhaps you’re really great at that back, but perhaps you’re not, and it might just feel actually that you are kind of heading for the scrap heap. And even just those internal thoughts can start to actually zap your confidence.

[00:18:05] So I think there’s huge amounts of reasons why we lose confidence. And on top of that, if you imagine that you know, if we take medicine, for example, in the doctoring world, you tend to reach the top of your career in inverted commas quite early on. So you could be, you know, a GP partner at early thirties if you’ve gone, you know, straight the way through, you could be a consultant at the same sort of age. And yes, of course there’s new challenges you can take on board and you become senior, you can be clinical lead, all these things, but actually you’re kind of at the pinnacle of your career really early on. And it can feel hard to know what to do, what, how to shape it.

[00:18:42] And so also another thing that affects confidence is boredom and that sense of Groundhog Day. And, and I think that that’s another thing just to throw in the mix as a bit of controversy about how, you know, whether other things affect confidence too.

[00:18:57] Rachel: So boredom makes you less confident. What? Why?

[00:19:01] Claire: Well, think of a time when your career has been boring. So there will be a time where maybe there are day-to-day challenges, as in say, if you have, you know, difficult, uh, consultation or a challenging diagnosis, but actually the day-to-day is the same. And a lot of people come to me saying it feels like there can be an aspect of their work, which feels like Groundhog Day, whether that’s in medicine or in other careers.

[00:19:28] So lack of career development, lack of career growth can often cause boredom. And when you are bored, it is easy to think, this is what I’ve got for the rest of my life. Oh my goodness, I’m not making this really, you know, the best of my career. I can’t really do anything else. This is all I can do. Oh, that sort of ugh feeling.

[00:19:49] And when you start to feel like that, it ties to, it sort of feeds into that exhaustion element. It feeds into that I’m not good enough, the inner critic bit, this is me for life feeds into then the boredom bit and all of that starts to, in my experience in the clients that I’ve seen. Drop their confidence level.

[00:20:06] And if I take personal experience, I know that there are certain aspects of my career where my confidence was at its lowest when I was bored. And partly that’s my personality and the fact I love doing a gazillion things, and that makes me really motivated and excited and feeds me and makes me feel really inspired. But when I’m bored, I’m much flatter. And when I’m flatter, I have less confidence in myself. And it’s harder to do harder things.

[00:20:31] Rachel: That makes a lot of sense. I know that one of the ways to wellbeing is, is learning and playing. And when you are learning and Maslow’s hierarchy, not perfect, but it does talk about man’s need to self-actualize. And so when we’re in a learning zone, you. Just learning new skills. You are, you are feeling like you’re growing it, you are also in flow. And when you’re in flow, you’re completely absorbed in something. So I guess you’ve not got the inner critic going, oh, you didn’t do that very well, or, that’s not very good.

[00:20:56] I mean, I, I know when I’m learning something, I’m not beating myself up about not being able to do it, not having to be perfect. So there’s not really a confidence issue’s like, well, of, of course I can’t, ice skate backwards ’cause I’ve never done it before. Oh, let’s learn how to do it. So yeah, you’re absorbed in the learning of the thing rather than the criticizing yourself for, for not doing so. So I, I, I can see that we really need to a, be in flow in quite a lot of our lives to, to feel good and to perform well.

[00:21:24] And also there is that thing if we are not learning and growing or developing in, in any area, then probably we start to go backwards. I, I wonder whether humans, they’re either growing and developing or going backwards. It’s quite difficult just to stay the same, isn’t it?

[00:21:38] Claire: It is.

[00:21:39] But I think there’s something really around risk taking, which is quite important. And I don’t mean like doing something crazy, but I do think that, when you are trying to build your confidence, if you really don’t know where to start, one of the most simple things is to do something a little bit scary every day.

[00:21:54] And that might be, depending on what your confidence level is, something really tiny. You know, if you find it really difficult to, I don’t know. go into a shop where people are looking down their nose at you, go into that shop where people are looking down their nose at you, you know? Just, I mean, that’s a ridiculous example, but you know what I mean? Like, just anything that is a little bit nerve wracking to do.

[00:22:15] So again, I lean into things which I am slightly terrified about. Not, I’m not good at doing things like bungee jumps that is not me, but on, from a work point of view. Um, you know, if, if somebody asks me to do something which is, you know, in front of a thousand people or something, that’s quite scary. But I think, yeah, I’m gonna do that. As opposed to, oh my goodness, I’m not, or if, you know, if I’m perhaps wanting to contact somebody that’s slightly, you know, high profile, my, my inner voice is going, don’t do that. They’re not gonna wanna talk to you. Who are you? But actually I think, do you know what? What’s the worst that’s gonna happen? I’m just gonna take a risk.

[00:22:51] And I think those sort of things actually really help to build confidence. Just taking little risks. Now I’ve given you examples around me, but you know, there might be something that’s for you around, you know, if you love walking, there might be somewhere that’s a height that’s really challenging. You think actually, I can, I know I’m capable of doing that physically, but it feels scary. What could I do to make that easier? Or I could go with a friend, or I could have a guide, or I could, you know, do it on a Sunday when I’m nice and relaxed or whatever, but I’m gonna do it.

[00:23:23] Or it could be, you know, actually I, I get really anxious when I am in a lift. Okay. So I’m not gonna go in a lift. But maybe what I could do is think about how I could start to desensitize myself, because that feels really scary. But what could I do to start to desensitize? How would I make it easier? Those sort of things.

[00:23:41] So taking little risks. I’m not talking about being reckless, but taking little risks really helps to build confidence. With those caveats in mind like you were just saying around I don’t need to be perfect at this because I’m learning. And you know, so you and your ice skating, there’s a risk that you might fall over and, you know, hurt yourself. But actually, actually that little risk feels worth it because there’s the learning and growing and the, the flow and all the other things.

[00:24:07] Rachel: I did, I fell over, I broke, I broke my ankle ice skating last October.

[00:24:11] Claire: She thought, oh, I remember that.

[00:24:12] Rachel: Yeah, genuinely plaster, six weeks, no sport for three months. So, you know, genuinely I was right to be scared about ice skating. Haven’t been back since, but uh, that’s because, uh, I found something else to do on a Sunday morning. But yes, what’s the worst can happen? Broken bone.

[00:24:27] When we have a lack of confidence, is it a whole load of stuff like someone laughing at us or someone thinking we are rubbish or, or someone making a complaint or someone putting us down or, or is it generally one particular thing? You know, when you’ve been coaching clients who have a lack of confidence, what’s their biggest barrier?

[00:24:44] Claire: I think all of that, but I think also that it is failing. That’s one of the big things. Which always seems a bit cockeyed to me because, um, I think that what we are learning more and more is that actually failure is vital for all of us from little children to, you know, a hundred year olds. We need to fail in order to learn and grow, in order to be successful regardless of what your definition of success is.

[00:25:12] So actually I think this sense of, actually I might not be good enough to do that, or I might not, this might not work, or, um, you know, why would they want me? And you know, that sense of failure is really big, and I think it depends what our inner drivers are that we’ve had since childhood. If your inner driver is, I’m not good enough, you’re starting at, at a, you know, at a really low confidence level and low self-esteem right from the beginning, which makes things harder. So there’s definitely something in around valuing yourself, knowing what you bring to the table, knowing your strengths. And I think that helps to build confidence.

[00:25:48] And that’s another thing that’s really useful is to doing some simple strengths exercises, um, which you can do yourself to work out, you know, what it is that you actually, that makes you, you, but also what you bring to the table, what your, what your skills and strengths are.

[00:26:03] ‘Cause I know that when, um, I was asked this and I did a course ages ago, so this said, what are your strengths? And I went, oh God, I don’t think I’ve got any. That was literally, I was, God, I’ve say something, I don’t, I don’t think I’ve got any. Like, literally not one. And then I went, I know what I’m good at. I’m a really good friend.

[00:26:19] Now, I actually know that I am a really good friend, right? But I probably am quite good at a few other things, even if I’m not very good at lots of other things. But I didn’t have a clue. I literally had no clue. So it’s really useful when you’re thinking about strengths. So strengths helps you be, knowing your strengths helps you to be more confident. So understanding what you are good at. If you don’t know, there are loads of ways to find out. So a little trick that I like to do is to ask people to ask five people in different parts of their life, um, what they think that you are specifically good at. So not just you are a really good friend, much more specific than that. You know, what it is about your friendship or how you interact with them all, what you do that makes them, them, that would be different to if they were speaking to somebody else. And to get them to give you three, at least three strengths, and to write it down. So to, for them to either text it or to email it, and then for the person asking a question to then collate them.

[00:27:17] And what’s fascinating is what normally happens is that there’s lots of repetition. And people might say, oh, you’re so kind, or, you are a brilliant presenter, or you are, you know, your communication skills are incredible, or your leadership the way that you do, you know, you’re such a inspiring leader, whatever it is, but there tends to be a lot of repetition. And what’s really interesting is to take it from. Different people, so not everybody at work. You might choose somebody very senior at work, someone very junior at work. You might choose someone from your childhood, someone from your uni days, someone from completely different aspects of your life, maybe a family member.

[00:27:54] And often it’s a, it’s a massive moment for people when they see how other people see them. And people often aren’t confident enough to do this. So what I just say, and every, every listener can do this, is just blame it on me. So just say, I’ve just been asked to do this ridiculous thing by Claire. It’s stupid. I dunno why she’s asking me, but I’ve got to do it. Could you please do this for me? And then suddenly they’re able to do it.

[00:28:19] So that’s one thing to do if you can’t do that or you don’t want to do that, there’s also a brilliant survey called the Via website. Um, which is VIA and if you just Google that, there’s a free survey which you can do, which helps to list your confidence levels on, on different, sorry, no, your skills levels on different aspects. And that’s really interesting. So that’s another way to do it. If you really don’t fancy that.

[00:28:39] And if you are feeling like you do not what your com, your strengths are, then actually just writing a list yourself is another thing to do. So all of those three things, whichever suits your personality better, is really good to have a go. Because if you know your strengths and you’re prepared to take a few risks, suddenly you’re starting to see, oh, actually I wonder how my, you know, my confidence is starting to grow. And those, those things can start to help as long as you are addressing some of the other aspects like the inner critic.

[00:29:04] Rachel: I come to the inner critic in a sec, but I think that point around strength is so important, not just for knowing what you’re bringing to the table when you’re in meetings or discussions or whatever, but a lot of people when they’re looking at their career and when they’re looking at what they enjoy and what they don’t enjoy, really beat themselves up about stuff. And I know that I would look at other people at my practice and think Wow, they’re such a good GP compared to me because look how much they’re doing this. Look how much they’re enjoying it. What is wrong with me? And then I look, looked at, I did that, the VIA survey of character strengths. We’ll put the link in the show notes. I think if you just Google authentic Happiness, you’ll, you’ll see a, a whole list of different surveys. So click on VIA Survey of character strengths. It’s brilliant.

[00:29:43] Um, and when I looked at my strengths, they were nothing to do with like minutia and little projects and things like that, which, which was what I was looking at, what other people were doing. And it just let me go, oh, it’s just not a strength. No wonder I’m not enjoying it. It doesn’t mean that I’m not capable of working. It doesn’t mean that I’m not good at a job. It just means that this particular job, that’s not a strength of mine and that’s, that’s not a problem because they don’t have exactly the strength, the same strength that I did, but it was, it was a massive eye-opener for me about why I was enjoying stuff and why, why I wasn’t

[00:30:18] Claire: And also, you know, if we’re going to have effective teams, you need to have people with different strengths. So it’s great that that person had a different set of skills to you otherwise that, you know, there’d be a massive area of the team that just didn’t work. So, you know, that’s really positive.

[00:30:33] But that kind of leads into another aspect that’s really, I think, important in confidence is, is surrounding yourself with what I call radiators and drain, not drain pipes. So radiators are people that are people that warm you up, that motivate you, make you feel, not necessarily a cheerleader, but you feel good around them. You feel like you could achieve more, that you can reach a potential. Whereas drainpipes are people that zap you. You know those people that you like very much, but at the end of the conversation, God, you’re exhausted. You know? So starting to think about who you are, surrounding yourself, and I think this is really, again, really interesting for workplace because those people that have got exactly the same workload, exactly the same pressures, but have an amazing work culture, which is really supportive, great team, you know, really sort of, um, helps when things go wrong. Just there’s psychological safety actually are far more confident and achieve far more and a far happier. Whereas those working in a far more toxic depleting environment, even if it’s just on the verbal front and everything else on paper looks exactly the same, tend to be far less confident and have far less Happiness in their workplace.

[00:31:43] So that’s a really, I think, just an easy trick just to have a look around you and think, actually, I love working with so-and-so I just, we really inspire each other and it feels really positive and not in a toxic way. It just feels really good and I just really enjoy working with them. We, we are completely different, but we work together really well. ‘Wise, so and so, they’re a lovely person, but God, it just depletes me, it doesn’t feel good. And that might be my problem, in which case, what can I do to change that interaction? Or maybe actually this is the system and the situation that they’re being affected by. Or maybe I’m actually in the wrong environment, and maybe there’s a different environment that I can be in.

[00:32:24] And I’ve seen that a lot with gps actually. Is that if they’re in a practice that just doesn’t suit them, that doesn’t allow, align with their values and their purpose, and then they switch practices to one that does, and there’s nothing wrong with the original practice, they’re just different, actually their confidence, their motivation, their joy, their Happiness, it massively changes, whereas on paper, they could be identical practices. So I think that’s really important to, again, thinking about who you are and what you need, and thinking about who you surround yourself with.

[00:32:55] Rachel: That’s an interesting point because often our own answer to feeling under confident is get more training, get more skills. Then I’ll be more, then I’ll be more confident. If I know more, if I can do more, then I’ll be more confident ’cause I’ll be, I’ll be happy that I can absolutely perform in the way I need to. But what you are saying there is actually the environment will affect it. So it’s not a question of more skills, it’s a question of a different environment, more supportive environment, and suddenly you’re gonna be flying.

[00:33:21] Claire: Yeah. And, and it’s different for different people, isn’t it? Because you know our thoughts, you know, we talked right at the beginning about it being influenced by people and experiences and that’s, it might be that you do need more clinical knowledge and, and, and that might be something that you may be struggle in. But it might be that actually by working on that, you might have other areas that perhaps you’re really good at that you can’t share as much. Or it might be that that’s a really positive thing to work at, but you are still not as good as some other people that are, you know, really excellent at because you are really good at the communication side or really good at the business side, or really good at. So there’s. Maybe you need to buddy up with somebody that’s really fantastic at the clinical side of it, and you need a safety net. You know, all of those things can happen once you have this insight.

[00:34:01] Rachel: Claire, one thing that I find really knocks my confidence is comparison with other people. Comparing

[00:34:07] Claire: oh yeah, that’s on my list, Rachel.

[00:34:09] Rachel: Yeah, the podcast. I look at, sometimes I look at the charts, right? So we’re in the, uh, very lucky we’re in the Apple UK top a hundred business podcast chart. And if I look at the podcast that’s near nearer mine, I’m like, oh my goodness. But. Look at, look at that one. They’re at number one. And oh my goodness, look at that person. And, and oh my, I’m never gonna be as good as that. And I, it’s a bit amateur, and this is, and I start comparing myself, and then I look at what they’re putting out on social media and I’m thinking, oh my goodness, look at those videos and, uh, and then your confidence starts to drop and you just, yeah. That, that is, it’s a real mind.

[00:34:46] Claire: It is, and I think you know this, but I think you are, you, you’ve hit the nail on the head that what we are almost trained to do is with social media these days and, and that feeds into all parts of our life, is to compare ourselves to others. And as a result, it always feels like we’re not good enough. And that is really negative. And it’s very hard not to do it. It’s very hard not to go, oh my God, but they’re doing this or they’re doing that, and, oh, but I should be able to do that. It’s really challenging, um, not to do that.

[00:35:17] But it is like, there’s a, a quote that goes round on Instagram the whole time around, you know, only comparing yourself to yourself and just trying to be better than you were the day before, that’s the most you can ask for. And I think that is the ideal, but it’s really hard.

[00:35:30] And you know, I had a similar situation where, you know, my confidence was really being affected by somebody on, um, you know, perfectly brilliant person on, on social media. And actually I was looking at all their posts and thinking, my God, they’re doing this and they’re doing that, that’s amazing, I’ll never be able to do that. And my friend said to me, why’d you follow them? And I was like, because I have to. And they’re like, but why? You’re really sad. And I’m like, I know, but I’ve got to, and she says stop following them, Claire, because you are making yourself really sad. And I actually thought, do you know what? It’s not the word sad. I’m feeling like I can’t do this anymore, that I’m not confident.

[00:36:06] Second, I stop following that person, even though they’re amazing and I really admire them, suddenly that heartache that I was putting my through self through two or three times a day completely reduced. And yes, I need to grow. I need to be better, I need to be more confident. And you know, these are my needs. This is what I’ve decided I want. But actually, not comparing myself to that person has made my confidence grow, because I’m only comparing myself to myself, and each day I’m just trying to get a little bit better, be a little bit kinder, be a little, do even better presentation, learn something new, give something back, help somebody grow to their potential, help myself grow to, to my potential. And all of that is positive.

[00:36:48] And it’s really interesting having experienced the detrimental effects of comparing myself to others, but I think we all do it all the time. Mine was are quite an extreme case. It sounds like yours as as well, but actually it doesn’t have to be like that. We can remove ourselves from the situation even if we can’t stop the comparison.

[00:37:05] Rachel: I actually had a podcast recently with Rob Bell, who is my absolute hero. He did, he did come on our podcast a long time ago with an episode called How to Ditch the Savior Complex and Be More Alive. But he has an amazing podcast and he did one about this, this comparison thing. And he was talking about whenever you see someone, he was talking about envy, actually. It was envy and jealousy, not comparison, but I think it would work for comparison. When you see something and you’re like envious of it, oh, look what they’ve got, and they shouldn’t have that, or that’s not fair. Why don’t I have that? So whenever we’re comparing ourselves going, well, I’ll never be that good, you stick it through a converter in your brain. And instead of going, I’ll never be like that, or I can’t, or I ought, do you stick it into look what’s possible. How amazing is that? Rather than I’ll never be, it’s like, wow, that is possible and I can learn stuff. But it sort of takes away that edge of I’m not.

[00:37:59] Because we often look at stuff and run it and, and our amygdalas, I guess, are telling us this negative story all the time to try and protect ourselves. I, I guess that’s, that’s what you mean when you’re talking about the inner critic, is it? When, when we’ve got these voices in our head telling us about how crap we are compared to that person and how rubbish, what a rubbish GP ’cause we don’t enjoy doing the audits, or how Claire, you are rubbish because you are not putting out posts like that amazing person, even though you are putting out amazing posts, you know, it is just rubbish. But that’s the way our brains are wired, I guess.

[00:38:32] Claire: Yeah, we all have this inner voice and you can call it what you want. You can call it inner critic or you know, the inner voice or you know, but we all have it. And it starts from when you are really young, like from the age of, you know, when if you think about toddlers, they talk a lot out loud. They give a running commentary of their life out loud. And then it kind of comes internal when you’re about five. And we all have it. And you can have this sort of positive voice in your head, which is kinda like your cheerleader. There’s that sort of neutral voice, which is kind of the running commentary of your life, like I’m now going into the fridge to get the cheese or whatever it is. And then you’ve got that negative voice, which is, you are not good enough, you won’t be able to do this, who do you think you are trying to do this? Don’t be ridiculous, this isn’t for you. It, I always go ni ni ni ni ni, that’s how I kind of describe it. And I think there, it, it’s something that often people don’t realize that they’re experiencing until it’s pointed out or to they start to recognize it themselves.

[00:39:27] And what’s one of the most fascinating things is to notice what type of inner voice in a critic negative self-talk you have and what the predominant type is. And once you start to realize what your type is. If it’s along the lines, which for most people it is that there’s a lot of negative self-talk, a lot of the voice is very negative and puts you down, that’s the first step to start to thinking, Okay, how can this be different? Because that massively affects your sense of confidence, self-worth, what you can achieve, how you interact with other people, what you get out of life, what you get out of work, it feeds into imposter syndrome. You know, it’s a massive thing. And I think once you can start to tackle it and there’s some really simple things you can do that’s really positive and helps to be you, you to become more confident as well.

[00:40:14] Rachel: So what would you be suggesting people do to try and tackle that inner critical voice?

[00:40:20] Claire: Well, I am smiling. I’m smiling because what I’m gonna suggest is going to be horrible for some people. Like, and they’re gonna absolutely hate it. And this is a real Marmite situation, so I’m gonna just say it and for some people you’re gonna hate it. Fine, don’t do it. But for other people it can be quite transformative.

[00:40:37] Um, so one of the things to do is to think about a time when your inner negative voice has been loud, like really, really loud. And to then think about if you were to draw that inner a voice, what would it look like? And for any listeners now, just pause now so you don’t hear the next bit of what I’m saying. But just pause now and just have a go and draw it. So, for some people this feels horrid, but I, I would recommend that you push yourself, take a little risk, push yourself out your comfort zone, and let’s see what happens.

[00:41:11] So once you’ve drawn it, then draw yourself next to it. And think about where you are position wise, think about the size of yourself comparison to it, and then think about what it feels like to be next to it. And then think about what you’d like it to be.

[00:41:32] So I did this yesterday with somebody and they had their, they’d drawn their, um, inner critic and they were tiny, tiny next to them. And they said, you know, actually what I’d like is for me to be the size of the inner critic, and for the inner critic, I know it’s still gonna be there, but to be much, much smaller so I feel in control.

[00:41:50] And then the next thing, which people either love or hate is to give a name to it. And you might just call it the inner critic. You might call it inner voice, but lots of people, including myself, love to name it. So mine is called Patricia. I’m very sorry for anybody out there called Patricia. My daughters is called Brian, and I’m not sure if I’ve told you this on, on this podcast before, but um, my daughter’s one, bless her. She, I’d forgotten that one of my relatives is called Brian, and her inner critic is called Brian. And she, I introduced her to Brian and she completely freaked out. She went, Bah! He’s called Brian. So obviously be careful what you name it, but just try and name it something, um, or someone that feels, it feels right.

[00:42:32] And then the reason for doing this is to start to detach the inner voice from self. So this sense of, actually this isn’t true, this isn’t actually real. I, I’m saying to myself, I’m no good at my job, but actually I’ve got 360 degree appraisals that say I am, I’ve got through medical school, I’ve never had a complaint. I have got loads of good feedback from colleagues and patients separate to my 360. There is no evidence for me not being good at my job. Yes, I’m learning and growing, but there’s no evidence.

[00:43:00] So it is just separating it from self is really vital. And once you start to do that, the next thing is around evidence. And this for me is the big one. So if you hate the first bit, don’t do it. That’s fine. But this one’s really useful. So if your negative self-talk is saying something, think about what’s the evidence for what they’re saying. YoU’re no good at your job. You won’t be able to do this. Well, that might be true. So if you are, you know, trying to be an astronaut and you’ve never been an astronaut, you might not be good enough at your job to do, be an astronaut. So it can be a safety net. So the evidence would say, actually that’s a true statement.

[00:43:34] If, however, it’s saying you’re no good at your job and it’s the state, the, the situation that I described before, you know, there’s no evidence for you not to be good at your job. So the evidence would actually lean towards the fact you are good at your job. Then actually that’s not a true statement, so that’s the time to say actually, go away, Patricia, you’re talking nonsense. And some people can just say go away. Some people can other otherwise just say, actually there’s no evidence for that statement. That is not true. Some people literally flick the, um, inner critic off their shoulder or stamp their foot to get ’em away or yell at them either outside of, you know, literally out loud or internally, and all of those things help to separate themself.

[00:44:15] And lastly, if none of those techniques help or you wanna try something else is around reframing. And I think this is also really useful. It’s just changing phrases around, which is kind of what we do in coaching. Kind of what you think about in mindset. Things like, I can’t do this, it’s too hard, would become something like, I can do this by breaking it down into small step. Something really that’s reframing when you start to think about things differently.

[00:44:37] And there’s a huge amount more into all of this, which we haven’t got time to go into today, but people are welcome to contact me or have a look at my Insta, I’m always talking about how to overcome negative self-talk. But it’s just something that a lot of people experience that really affects confidence, which we can do something about.

[00:44:54] And I also just lastly on that, just wanna say that when you first start these techniques, you will feel like they don’t work and that they’re rubbish. And my response to that is it’s like reading. When you first start reading, it feels impossible and it’s not gonna happen and you’ll never be able to read. But the more you practice it, it just becomes innate. And your negative self-taught will shrink and your confidence will grow.

[00:45:14] Rachel: I like those. I love those tips. I’ve actually, I’ve actually got some drawings of my, I’ve just done. And that, it’s very interesting actually. I’ll, I’ll sit them on Instagram, Claire. We can compare drawings.

[00:45:24] Claire: Oh yeah, I’d like to

[00:45:25] Rachel: I’m trying to get better at Instagram. I’m really rubbish, but I’m trying to get better so I will start sticking them on. So I’ll stick them on, you can see them. Um, one thing I think I would also add into that is a bit of self-compassion. Because I was thinking, what if you have made a mistake? What if you have got a complaint. And you go, well, look, there’s that, there’s that evidence that I am crap at my job. Actually, something that’s helped me, no end is like putting my hand on my heart and saying to me, the critic, or saying to myself Of course you snapped at that person. Look what you’ve been putting up with. Of course you did. You are human. That’s okay. Of course, you responded badly in situation. Of course you failed. Everybody fails, you know?

[00:46:03] Claire: Absolutely right. And you know, again, that’s another one of my, um, points on the how to be more confident is to be kind to yourself. Because we can’t do everything perfectly, probably ever, to be honest. But we certainly can’t do it all the time. So actually it’s being kind to ourselves is so vital. And you know what, if you try to do something and it goes wrong, so what? Tomorrow’s another day. As long as we learn and grow and take, you know, be kind to ourselves, be kind to others, that’s all you can ask for from yourself.

[00:46:34] So it is really important to be kind to yourself around the inner critic and when things go wrong and when the evidence is pointing other way. But it’s really, in order to be more confident, you have to be kinder to yourself generally. And I think, again, as doctors, we are not terribly good at that. We’re brilliant at being kind to other people. We are notoriously terrible at taking care of ourselves and being kind to ourselves. And if you take away nothing else from today’s conversation, if you want to be more confident, be kind to yourself. You will be more confident as a result.

[00:47:02] Rachel: And if you struggle being kind to yourself, then if you share what you’re thinking with a friend, they’ll go, what on earth are you thinking? You know? I remember coming, coming home, something had happened at work. I was feeling awful about it, feeling it was all my fault, it was dreadful. Just sharing it with my other half and he was like, well, that’s not much of a big deal. So what? So what you did that? Everyone makes, you know, and he just sort of, I was like, oh, it’s not such a big, it’s really, it’s really okay. And often yeah, your friends can give you that compassion that you can’t give yourself and then you start to internalize it. Do you ever get people to write down their, their inner critic and, and what they’re saying?

[00:47:37] Claire: Oh yeah. I’ve got full scripts from people and it’s, do you know when they read it back to somebody and when it’s, I mean, sometimes from some people, it’s actually abuse.

[00:47:46] Imagine if somebody was sitting next to you all day going, you are rubbish at that. You are useless. No one’s gonna learn to listen to you. Oh my God, you are so annoying. Why do you even speak? No one wants to hear what you’ve got to say. Imagine someone, your friend was sitting next to you. You wouldn’t be friends with them, would you? They would be a definite, you know, drainpipe. You’d be running a mile from them. But actually most people live with this internal voice all the time, and for some it’s so loud and it zaps everything. So if this is you, then you can start these easy techniques today and it won’t be gone by tomorrow, but it will certainly shrink.

[00:48:20] And there’s a very good, um, CBT model around tomato plants, I dunno if you know it, where basically if you think about your anxiety and the inner, inner voice around being a tomato plant in the sense that it needs water and sunlight and somebody to talk to it to make it flourish and to grow fruit, but actually you don’t want that fuel inner critics. So if you don’t give it water and you don’t give it sunlight and you don’t talk to it, you kind of ignore it, actually, it starts to shrink. So the message in this from the CBT world is don’t water your tomato plant. So when it’s yelling at you, you are not good enough, you are not going, rather than going, you’re right, I’m not good enough. Just go off. You go. Patricia, Brian, Tom, Bob, whatever you, your inner critic’s called. Not interested today. The evidence says, actually I’m okay. I’ve got things to learn, but I’m okay.

[00:49:04] Rachel: Get lost, Patricia. I love the fact you’ve called yours, Patricia.

[00:49:06] Claire: I know I feel so bad and I dunno why I have, because I don’t know anyone that that’s called Patricia. Anyone called Patricia, I’m so sorry. It’s no

[00:49:14] Rachel: Maybe that’s why you did, because you knew you couldn’t offend anybody because.

[00:49:17] Claire: but I mean, the only Patricia I know is Pat Butcher off East Enders, and she was perfectly pleasant

[00:49:22] Rachel: Oh, I don’t think she was.

[00:49:24] Claire: Well, at times. I kind of had a soft spot for her. Anyway.

[00:49:27] Rachel: channel you in a Pat Butcher.

[00:49:29] Claire: Yeah.

[00:49:29] Rachel: Claire, we’ve, yeah, we have gone way over time, but this is such a fascinating topic. No, don’t apologize. What would your three top tips be if someone is really struggling with their confidence?

[00:49:39] Claire: Can I give you 10, but they’ll be really quick?

[00:49:41] Rachel: Yeah. 10 quick ones. Go for

[00:49:42] Claire: Okay. Okay.

[00:49:43] So establish your strengths. Take a risk. Look for the evidence. Surround yourself with radiators, not drain pipes. Notice when your confidence is low, and celebrate your wins. Learn from your mistakes, then move on. Trust that you add value. Think about you inner a critic and reduce it, be kind to yourself. And my last one, which is credit to Shahzad Shamim, is look for the gift and adversity, because when you find the gift, there is always a gift that will help your confidence and will help to bring the joy into the situation.

[00:50:14] Rachel: That was really quick. I am very, very impressed. That last, that last point I’ve heard that. Um, and something that’s really helped me, um, is play hunt the pony. So if you are, if you’ve got into a situation and all you can see is a massive steaming pile of horse shit, you look around and go, there must be a pony somewhere. That’s really helped few situations where I’ve be like, this is crap, this is awful, but where’s the pony, where’s the pony in this? So that.

[00:50:42] Claire: Oh my goodness. Well, next time I do see that, when I’m gonna be thinking of you.

[00:50:46] Rachel: Yeah. Time pile you’ll think of. That’s lovely. Um. Oh my word. Claire as ever. It’s been totally fantastic talking to you. Um, I would also add, and something from my own experience when my inner critic is, is quite loud and often that is due to past experiences, I think there is a, um, a place for therapy in this as well. Um, seeing a therapist who can help you uncover some of this stuff that you’re telling yourself. ‘Cause often it’s so deeply ingrained and so, so unconscious. And I think one thing, I know that as doctors we have a lot of very internalized thoughts and beliefs that sometimes you just need to uncover a little bit to, uh, to move them on.

[00:51:27] Claire: A hundred percent. If doubt, seek help.

[00:51:30] Rachel: Yeah, yeah. So, so these tips are really, really good. And they’re, they’re good start. If you find that you’re, you’re still struggling in this and deeper stuff, then please go see someone. It, I’m, I’m seeing someone at the moment and it’s really helpful. It really, really is. Um, and in fact, she’s got me doing that Taylor Swift thing. Shake it off. Shake it off. Just shake it off.

[00:51:47] Claire: You look a bit like Taylor Swift, so that works.

[00:51:50] Rachel: Do I? Oh my God. Thank you.

[00:51:52] Claire: one.

[00:51:53] Rachel: I’ll take that. My inner critic’s Taylor Swift? She’s like 20 years younger than you and really beautiful. Anyway, thank you, Claire. Listen, if people want to find out more about you, your work, how can we contact you?

[00:52:03] Claire: Yeah, I’m all over social media, so on Insta, I’m Dr. Claire Kaye Coaching. Um, on LinkedIn I’m Dr. Claire Kaye. And I’m also on all the other, uh, platforms. If you are, don’t wanna use any of those, then check out my website, which is www.drclairekaye.com. And people do contact me all the time, so feel free to get in touch.

[00:52:20] Rachel: That’s brilliant. And it’d be really good if you could contact us both as well on Insta or Facebook and let us know what you’d like us to talk about next because, um, I love these conversations. There’s always so much we can talk about, but if you have a particular topic that you would really like to explore in, in this sort of area, let us know and we’ll make it happen. Thank you for being with us, Claire, and we’ll speak soon.

[00:52:39] Claire: thanks for having me.

[00:52:41] Rachel: Thanks for listening. Don’t forget, we provide a self coaching CPD workbook for every episode. You can sign up for it via the link in the show notes. And if this episode was helpful, then please share it with a friend. Get in touch with any comments or suggestions at hello@youarenotafrog.com. I love to hear from you. And finally, if you’re enjoying the podcast, please rate it and leave a review wherever you’re listening. It really helps. Bye for now.