How to Make a Difficult Decision

[00:00:00] Rachel: At some point, you’ve probably asked yourself a question about your career. Am I in the right role. Am I on the right team? Is this even a path I want to keep walking? But there are a number of smaller questions that can help you think about the bigger one. Like, why am I feeding the need for change? What’s currently making me unhappy, or what would I like to be different? This week, I’m delighted to have Jane Gunn, AKA the Beth at mediator back on the podcast.

[00:00:25] Jane works with people in times of challenge and crisis, helping them navigate through transition and change. And she’s just written a book called The Mole and the Mountain, which helps us connect with our inner wisdom. In a really approachable way. So if you’re wrestling with a tricky decision or you find yourself looking to other people for advice, this conversation is for you.

[00:00:47] If you’re in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you’re feeling stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options. I’m Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog.

[00:01:01] I’m Jane Gunn and I’m known as the Barefoot Mediator, and I help people in times of change, challenge and crisis exactly the times we are living in now.

[00:01:13] I love your title, Jade. I, I love the the Barefoot Mediator. Now, you’ve been on our podcast before, so people will have heard you before. But for those listeners who are new, just tell us why you’re called the Barefoot Mediator.

[00:01:24] Jane: Well, it goes back to lockdown really, and literally sitting at my desk as I am now with no shoes on and probably no socks either. Uh, literally barefoot, doing my professional work as a, as a mediator. And I think I just made a joke to a client, said, oh, I’m the barefoot mediator, and it stuck. Um, and then I thought, what is a barefoot mediator? And to me, the skills and tools and mindset that I use in my work as a mediator are very often it’s seen as something that’s only used in legal disputes or commercial disputes, but in actual fact, I think we could all benefit from using those skills and tools and mindset. So it was my idea that we should expand the reach of mediation and everybody to be able to use those tools in their everyday life.

[00:02:11] Rachel: Bit like the Naked Chef, right?

[00:02:13] Jane: Yes.

[00:02:16] Rachel: I was gonna say it’s a new brand for you. You could like go up a notch and be the naked mediator, but let’s.

[00:02:22] Jane: I might lose some clients. I think Rachel?

[00:02:24] Rachel: You might, you might gain some as well. You never know. That would just put a spin on it. Anyway, we, we digress. Jane, we’ve had you on before and we’ve had some brilliant podcasts with you about like how to say the thing that really needs to be said, how to raise issues, all those sorts of things. And I’m really interested in the direction that your work has taken because you’ve, you’ve actually just produced a book called The Mole and the Mountain. Jane,, tell us, why did you write this book? What was it in response to?

[00:02:57] Jane: So somebody very early on said that what I do, the service I provide is making mole hills outta mountains. And so in my two previous books, the illustrator Simon Ellinas, who’s illustrated this book, always put a little mole. And then gradually Maurice has come to life and I just wanted to write a book about maurice and the mole and what that meant.

[00:03:19] And actually the times we are living in, which seem to be, I I describe as a cycle of crises, it seems to me that for a lot of people we are living in quite dark times. A lot going on for many, many people. And that was so during the last three or four years. So the story is about how do we, how do we deal with dark times? How do we come outta the dark and find a, a vision and a way forward? And I’ve always found my clients’ journey, if you like, that they go on when I’m working with them in a mediation or in some kind of conflict process, that they go on a specific journey. And there are about four points, uh, that this book is based on a, a little map, which appears at the beginning of the book, but there are several points on the map where I find my clients get stuck, really.

[00:04:08] And so I’ve illustrated all of those points and taken Morris on this journey from this darkness, uh, into fi finding a vision and um, and finding what I call the mountain top of experience. A place that’s where he was aiming to get to. And, and, and a, a place that’s sort of lighter and more energetic.

[00:04:27] Rachel: And so it, it’s all about helping people get unstuck with journeys that they’re on with, with life transitions and life changes.

[00:04:36] Jane: Definitely. and so it can be used for, it can be used in many, many different scenarios. And so I, you know, I’ve got a couple. My niece for example, is about to transition. She’s about to move back from living in New York for about seven years to, to the UK. And she said she was finding it very helpful to think through that transition, where, where were they getting stuck? What were the challenges? What vision did they want to have? Uh, and another young friend has been using it again for a transition or thinking about a transition from the kind of work he’s doing to a different kind of work environment.

[00:05:12] Rachel: And do you find that people get stuck in exactly the same places, in exactly the same order, or is it different for everybody?

[00:05:20] Jane: I think it’s different, but I what I’ve, there’s a, there’s a place in the book and in the map called the murky Swamp of Reality, and I think we all get stuck there from time to time. It, it’s a place where, and I do liken it to a swamp. You know, if you, if you were stuck in a swamp and you start thrashing around, all you do is make the water muddier, it becomes less clear and you really can’t see, you know, it’s just so, you’re just surrounded by mud and weeds. And it’s how do you, in that moment of not knowing, how do you go into the darkness, which is further into yourself, which is questioning yourself and your reasoning and where you’re going, how do you take that journey within into yourself as well and think, where am I really trying to get to? What’s holding me back?

[00:06:04] And so that’s the phase in a, what I would call in a mediation where we’re, what we call exploring. We are looking at what were our expectations, what is our experience, or what evidence do we need to kind of help us make the decision and make the transition? And we surely don’t want to stay stuck in the swamp for very long.

[00:06:23] Rachel: Why do you think people get stuck in that swamp of reality?

[00:06:26] Jane: I think often it’s that we :don’t want to do the internal questioning. So, uh, I find even in my commercial mediations that people want to. Rush through this phase of exploring more deeply what’s going on to understanding themselves as well as understanding the situation they’re in. And uh, you know, that can be quite difficult. It can Kate and take quite some time. So, uh, I often find clients say, well, let’s not bother about that. Let’s just jump to what the solution would be.

[00:06:53] So this is really the most important. Place of a map, although it’s perhaps one of the sort of hardest places. Uh, and if you can imagine being in a swamp, you know, you want to get out as quickly as possible, but sometimes you’ve got to relax into it and think, what am I learning in this place? What’s this all about?

[00:07:09] Rachel: That’s really interesting because I think that that happens in coaching as well. Often people come to you with like a, I want to get this to the solution. I want, I wanna solve this problem. And you go, okay, well what is it that you want? Like, what’s really important? What do you want? And that completely stumps them. Because they’ve been so fixated on solving the problem that when you say, well, actually in, in the long term, what do you want?

[00:07:34] And, and I’m not judging anyone either, because I’ve been sort of thinking about like my work quite recently in my career, like what do I actually, what do I actually want? What does, what does anyone actually want in their lives? And the problem is if you don’t know that, then you go off chasing that career or that solution to your problem. And you might get there to find that, oh my goodness, it’s the wrong solution. It doesn’t actually even work.

[00:07:56] Jane: Well, there is that wonderful book by Jon Kabat-Zinn which is Wherever You Go, There You Are. It’s so true, isn’t it? You know, you can, you can search after all the, all the toys and all the experiences, and then there you are. And that, and that’s what we are experiencing or that’s what we’re exploring. Who are you, who you being, who do you want to be rather than what do you want to do and what do you want to have?

[00:08:19] Rachel: And I’m fascinated that you’ve, you’ve come to this through actually working in mediation. ‘Cause in my mind, mediation is, yeah, there’s a problem. You need to solve it and make sure you are all on the same page. But actually it sounds like there’s a lot of quite deep work that has to go on for, for both parties in a mediation.

[00:08:36] Jane: Yeah, and I think they often do, as we say, they often try and avoid that and think, oh, this is a, this is a legal or it’s a commercial problem. It’s nothing to do with us as human beings. You know, let’s just get it sorted and it’s not, not really the case, you know, we, wherever we go, again, there we are as human beings and we have to deal with our, our humanity, if you like, and our human conditioning,

[00:08:59] Rachel: It is always a human problem. Let’s

[00:09:00] Jane: it’s.

[00:09:02] Rachel: Side note, we had a tree surgeon over recently just to sort of clear, clear a few branches. And I sort of said, oh, you know, so how do, how do we manage these trees in general? And he said to me, trees are not a tree problem. Trees are a human problem. Trees are great just as they are. It’s a humans that get in the way and go, all that ranch is overshadowing my fence or, or, or something like that. So how do you help people really know what they really want when they are in that, that swamp of reality?

[00:09:29] Jane: I did a blog last week. What was it called? Bobby’s question or something. It’s about a young guy. He says I’d, I’d love a red sports car. And I go, well, why would you love a red sports car? Well, if I had a red sports car, I’d have more people. I. Noticing me. Oh, so you’d have more people noticing you? Anyone in particular? Yes, I’d have Rachel noticing me or maybe. Uh, okay. What is it about? So you go on through and through the questions, uh, asking deeper and deeper questions. So what, so what is it really about the red car that you want? And often it’s about how we feel about ourselves. Well, I would have more people liking, loving me, acknowledging me.

[00:10:13] And it’s not that every problem is about that, but more than anything, we want to feel good about ourselves and we want to feel acknowledged, heard, and paid attention to by others, and if we feel that we don’t matter and that people don’t care. then we are looking for that.

[00:10:30] And, and that would be so in a workplace. You see, even in a workplace conflict where we’re not happy at work, it’s usually ’cause we don’t feel respected and acknowledged or that we’re able to provide the service to our patients or clients that we’d really like to do.

[00:10:43] Rachel: So interesting. I was looking to a podcast yesterday, where I think Greg McEwen, the guy who wrote Essentialism, was talking to Tim Ferriss. Um, massive fan of Greg McConney. I recommend his book, essentialism to everybody. And he was saying that, you know, every single conflict in the world or argument between people is about, at the bottom line is do I matter? Do I matter to you? Um, all around adult attachment, you know, I, I need to matter in, in this case.

[00:11:12] Jane: Those two questions. Do I matter and am I heard? And, and, and essentially the mediation process is about enabling people to, to answer those two questions and to hear each other.

[00:11:24] Rachel: So if it’s not a case of mediation, if it’s a case of like, should I change jobs or should I move departments or should I step up and go for that role, where does that come in, in, in, in the swamp of despair or no, hang on. Not swamp of dep. I think that’s Pilgrim’s Progress. Muddling up my, my Journey books, the Swamp of Reality.

[00:11:44] Jane: The murky swamp of reality.

[00:11:46] I think again, it’s so, so, you know, going more deeply into that question, why do you want to change jobs? What it, what is it about your current job that makes you feel unhappy, uncomfortable, unsettled? And then again, I know people don’t always like to answer the question, but where are you going to? And as much as what does that job look like? What does that job feel like? How would you feel differently if you were in a different position? Because we can always be chasing salary and title and, you know, lots of hard things if you like, but what are the softer elements of what you really want for you?

[00:12:24] You know, I think it’s important to think how would I, how would I feel differently at the end of a working day in a different, or how would I like to feel differently at the end of a working day in a different position?

[00:12:33] Rachel: And there are always those sort of four basic needs aren’t there? To, to feel happy and contented and alive and human, and then to, to deeply connect with other people, to do something with some meaning and purpose and to be learning and growing and stuff. And if you can get all of that, that’s what we should have aiming for isn’t it not, not the. Oh, that mountain over there. ’cause that looks like, I might feel like that if I’m at the top.

[00:12:56] Jane: Yeah, and I, I think today and in many professions and probably, uh, as much in medicine, is that people are finding a disconnect. They are disconnected from human beings, you know, they’re not able to connect as effectively with their colleagues, with their patients, with their clients. And we are feeling that disconnect.

[00:13:16] Rachel: Just moving on to the, the stages of a journey. Typically what, what do people then encounter next? Once they’ve really worked out what they want or they’ve got much more of an idea, what then happens next to sort of stop them?

[00:13:30] Jane: Well, there’s quite, there’s quite a few little characters, which you’ll have seen Rachel on the, uh, map, and one of them is the dragon of doubt. And, you know, the dragon of doubt looms large for all of us. We begin to doubt that, is that really what I want? Or why do I want it? Or, or perhaps I’m not worthy of having it, or perhaps I don’t even have the qualifications or the ability to get there. So the dragon of doubt looms quite large.

[00:13:54] And there are another couple of characters on the map. one is the tiger and one is the eagle. And those represent either, again, inner feelings or actually perhaps real people, um, who are either holding us back or enabling us. So a tiger I describe as being something or someone that’s on your back. It’s kind of nagging you, it’s kind of being a bit of a bully really, micromanaging you if you like. Um, whereas an eagle is much more floating above you, it’s got your back, it’s looking out for you, but it’s not sort of trying to direct where you go.

[00:14:32] And one of the key principles of mediation is what I call self-determination. You can have a map, you can have a compass, you can have some guides along the journey, but at the end of the day, you decide. It’s up to each of us to make those decisions. Um, and we can’t be looking for someone to come and save us. And it doesn’t matter, you know, whether that’s a politician or a famous person who we follow as an influencer. Or whether it’s a guide or a mentor, they, they’re not there to save you. They’re there to guide you. You decide at the end of the day where you want to go, and then you step out with confidence on that journey.

[00:15:11] Rachel: That’s so interesting.

[00:15:12] I’ve been talking to lots of people recently who, when they’ve realized they want to change something in their work or when they realize their stressed and they need to sort of go off sick, have been really disappointed and felt really let down by the, the leadership where they were. So either their partners or their colleagues or the HR department or their, their clinical leaders, things like that.

[00:15:34] And, um, the more I hear this, the more I’m thinking, well, of course, of course not. Because if you are all working together, so if you are working in a practice and. You know, you need to start looking after yourself and take some time off because you’re getting quite unwell, and you go to the senior partner who’s also experiencing all the stress that you are experiencing, and you say, well, I’m really struggling, then they have such a conflict of interest, don’t they? In, in being able to support you in the way that they would do normally if they were just a friend or a mentor or, or an eagle. I guess what I’m thinking is like eagle like is above the situation. They’re not in it. The tiger is probably on the ground having to, having to deal with all the same crap that you are having to deal with.

[00:16:17] And so it’s not that these people don’t want to support you, I’m sure they really do and mean very well. But everybody, when anything happens, their immediate thought is, what does that mean to me? What does it mean for me? So if one of your colleagues is really saying, I’m really struggling, you, you try and be as support as as you can, but actually deep down you going, Oh, how am I gonna fill that rotor? When are they gonna come back? This isn’t actually very fair. ’cause I, you know, I think that, and then, so I’m saying to people of co of course, they’re not gonna be able to support you in the way that you want them to. And so they will then start to say things that make you feel doubtful about stuff.

[00:16:53] But presumably in mediation it’s really obvious that the person you are sort of against or in the having to be in the mediation with, of course they’re gonna have their own back and you’ve got your own back, and that’s probably why the mediations happened in the first place. But we don’t quite recognize that in, in the normal interactions.

[00:17:08] Jane: What we don’t also recognize, and ano another character very early on in the map, is someone with lots of baggage, burdens and baggage. And in fact, it happened to me the other day. I was, uh, I liked to mountain bike, and I was coming down the track, quite a narrow track, and there was somebody in front of me and I always shout out rather than ring my bugs have a ring my bell, people jump outta their skin. So I just shout out, bike behind. So I shout out, bike behind to this guy. And he turns to let me pass, but as he turns, he’s got this enormous backpack on, which actually blocks my way even more.

[00:17:38] And of course when you look at someone head on when you’re talking to them, you can’t see the burdens and baggage that they’re carrying, which is what you are describing. And we can’t see our own ’cause it’s on our back. And this is all the stuff that’s, you know, as you are describing, weighing us down. What else is going on in my life? What has gone on in my life before? What leadership have I experienced? What childhood experiences have I? All of this stuff is on our back and on somebody else’s back.

[00:18:05] And again, you know, it’s not always appropriate to get it out and unpack it all, but sometimes we need to just acknowledge that’s there, you know, they must have their own stuff. I’ve got my own stuff. Is the sum of it. I need to get out and leave by the wayside, lighten my load and lighten my journey? Um, but just knowing that that’s there and, and it’s there for everybody.

[00:18:26] Uh, I did a little, uh, mini video not long ago about what’s in your cup. And of course if somebody bumps into you in the corridor and you spill your coffee, you say, well, it’s your fault you spilled the cup. No, it was depended what you had in your cup and how full your cup was as to what you spilled and where it went. So we just have to remember these things.

[00:18:45] Rachel: It’s bringing me back to last week I was on the train and spilled my cup of tea over somebody else’s laptop. It’s awful. It was honestly one of the most traumatic experiences I’ve had recently. I felt so bad. Anyway, they were so nice about it, and actually it was, it was okay, the laptop still worked. But the thing I really found difficult was I just thought to myself, actually, I’m not sure I would’ve been so gracious and nice in that situation. It really made me look at .

[00:19:09] And I guess, bringing us back to, you know, other people’s baggage and stuff like that. If, if you are going on a journey, if you are making a change, if you’re making a decision, and you tell someone else about it. A they’ve got all that baggage, and they’ve got their own responses. And, and a lot of their response to you is about their own, you know, their own worries about things and their own opinions.

[00:19:33] And, um, I think a lot of people’s responses to you is just it, but what it does, it’s holding a mirror up to them, isn’t it? It’s it’s holding a and, and they might, it might set off some uncertainty in them and make them think, well, well, am I doing the right thing? And so what you get is it’s sense of reaction, right?

[00:19:51] Jane: Why their advice to you is probably their advice to themselves, not to you. And the other thing that’s occurring to me in, in this, uh, in this part of the conversation, Rachel, is we, we are all reacting from fear mostly. This fear-based reaction, and it’s more prevalent than ever because we’re, we’re living very much, uh, in a fear-based society. There’s so much fear in the media. Uh, you know, everything is fear-based, and we then tend to react even more from a fear perspective.

[00:20:20] And of course, that doesn’t facilitate logical thinking at all. It makes us very restricted in our thinking, very linear in our thinking. And so only when you can sort of let go of that fear and say But what about the opportunities and the possibilities and you know, where might this lead? But you know, other people are probably advising us or wanting to hold us back because of their own fear for us and for themselves too.

[00:20:46] Rachel: Yeah, and I think one’s nearest and dearest that often, almost some of the worst culprits, aren’t

[00:20:51] Jane: Oh, yes, for sure.

[00:20:54] Rachel: Well-meaning, well-meaning relatives who, who don’t really know what’s going on, but think actually, well that’s, that, that path you are going down and you know that, that, that means financial security for you and your family, and that’s gonna worry me if you don’t, if you don’t have that. So I’m gonna give you this advice.

[00:21:08] That thing about making decisions from a place of love opposed to a, a place of fear. I call that being, being in the corner and being triggered. It’s quite hard, isn’t it, to notice when we’re in which mode, I guess conscious leadership would say, are you above the line or below the line, making that decision?

[00:21:26] Jane: it, it is hard. I mean, I, I, I use love as a sort of, uh, a acronym to say, are you listening to yourself and to others? Are you observing what’s actually going on within yourself, uh, and, and outside? Verify means to check, let me just check in with myself, let me check in with others. Let me be sure. And then E stands for empathy or ease. Um, but also am I, am I being thoughtful and empathetic? And then fear is all about fighting, engaging, being adversarial and needing to be right. So those are the two. And I use both of those to, um, see whether we’re in one, one mode or the other.

[00:22:14] Rachel: I love that. That’s really helpful. ’cause I’ve, I found myself a bit below the line in, in the fair thing recently, maybe in a couple of meetings I’ve been in. And actually, part of the battle is just noticing that, actually realizing it, isn’t it? If you realize you’re below the line and, and acting out of fear, oh, that’s interesting, I’m there. And then the shift and get l listen actually, okay, let me just shift into listening and observing and if I can then start to act like that, that that immediately will, will move me out.

[00:22:40] Jane: So, for example, in a meeting, Rachel, where uh, you know, you might, so if you are acting outta fear, you might be triggered to respond or be defensive to somebody else in a meeting. Whereas if you were to stop yourself and you could say Let me just ask a question, or let me just check. So the verifying me, I, I thought I heard you say this. I’d just like to clarify what we’re saying here. So you just step back into that listening, verifying checking mode to go give myself a bit of space. Let me just check what’s actually going on and what I’m really hearing.

[00:23:12] Rachel: About getting curious, isn’t it? Uh, that, that, that’s my favorite word to flip me is like, get cur, get curious, not defensive.

[00:23:19] And interesting, back to this thing about the mentors and people that give you advice, whether they’re tigers or eagles. I think one of the issues is that there are people that we really respect that have been fantastic mentors, that have given us brilliant advice. And, and it that might be more in context. It might be say, um, I’m thinking there’s lots of doctors that listen to this podcast, so they might be a, a clinical mentor. They, they trained us or a senior consultant. We really appreciate their wisdom on that. And then we go to them about another decision entirely, that’s about something else, and we expect them to have the same sort of wisdom on that as they’ve, as they’ve had on other things.

[00:23:56] I read an article recently about having different mentors for different things, and I think that’s where we come a cropper, ’cause oh, Bob doesn’t think that’s a good idea what, I just told him. Well, you know, yeah, ’cause Bob’s not an expert in that bit. He’s, he’s an expert in neurology, but not, not in that. I mean,

[00:24:11] Jane: So true, Rachel. And I do think we also shouldn’t underestimate the impact of having younger mentors as well. We always think a mentor should be somebody older and wiser. It’s not necessarily so and may be that sort of asking a younger colleague what they think, or for their thoughts, would be just as effective or even more effective because they’ve maybe got a different perspective, particularly as medicine’s moving so fast, you know, and somebody who’s much, much more senior to, uh, to us may have a very different perspective on the workplace and the opportunities and the options than somebody who’s younger would have.

[00:24:50] Rachel: Yeah, definitely we, we definitely see that. But I’m, I’m Gen X apparently, and we definitely see that, the millennials, um, are much more, um, focused on, on work life balance, actually. And, and we, the, the generation above me, are they the boomers, I dunno who they are, but medicine seems be much more of like this vocation that you gave your entire life to that, you know.

[00:25:11] And, and so actually I think we could take a lot of advice from millennials who, who’ve got it right. ‘Cause if, if we don’t have the right work life balance, nobody’s getting any better really. ’cause we just then end up burning ourselves out.

[00:25:22] Jane: And I think in law where I come from in medicine, there was always this sense in that you did, you know, push yourself really, really hard at the beginning and you worked very long hours for very little pay. And you know, it was kind of, well, if I’ve done it, then the next generation ought to be able to do the same. And we’ve stepped back from that a bit and that isn’t the right approach anymore.

[00:25:40] Rachel: That’s really helpful, actually. I think identifying when you’re making decision, is this person an eagle? Someone who really has got good perspective and, and actually is independent, doesn’t have a vested interest in me carrying on fulfilling that role that I’m fulfilling now or carry on doing the same thing or whatever the decision is. Yeah, I guess it’s, it’s the independence and then the lack of vested interest. Or they, tiger they’re sort of in it, in it with us and actually me even asking, that’s probably sparky a little bit fear in them, so they’re, they’re coming back very defensive.

[00:26:09] Jane: And that there also might be that in, that element of those characters in ourselves as well. So also understanding where we are being more tiger or more eagle.

[00:26:20] Rachel: lovely. So, okay, that’s really helpful. What, what comes next then? What?

[00:26:25] Jane: Well, the next point is then lists sort of decision making part. So, uh, it, you come to what I call the bridge of courage. And to take, to go forward, you’ve got cross the bridge, but um, to the left hand side is something called the deep abyss. And for example, you know, I can give an example from a, a mediation even is that often people in mediation end up spending or potentially spending or losing more money on their legal fees than they stand to gain. And so that would be ending up in the nowhere abyss. In terms of a conflict escalating. You get to the stage where I mustn’t lose, I mustn’t lose face here. And, you know, if both people are gonna say, I’ll do anything not to lose face, then you end up, you can, you potentially end up losing everything or everything that you had the opportunity to gain.

[00:27:22] So it’s really here a decision. It’s a decision making place to say what are the options, what are the possible options? And I think one of the challenges we have, particularly in society and often in organizations when we’re trying to make decisions, is we come up with one narrative and one solution, and then we think we must follow that ’cause we’ve now invested in that, and we don’t do, again, the hard work of thinking how many options and solutions, potential solutions are there, and what are all the costs and benefits of those individual solutions?

[00:27:57] And the most important question people do not know the answer to is what criteria, on what criteria do I judge these options? And I used to ask this when I was a board member and say, so on what criteria are we, are we making a decision on these options? And people would blank over and go dinner, haven’t thought about it. So it’s very important to say, you know, is it is one of my criteria work-life balance? Is one of my criteria salary? Is one of my criteria childcare? I mean whatever. But you know, what are the criteria? How do you use them to judge the right way forward? Uh, and just having some really.

[00:28:36] Rachel: And can you use that for, I guess not just sort of like career, job change decisions, but say if you had to make a, a decision about going and having a very difficult conversation with a colleague, for example, or if you start, if you’re gonna performance manage, somebody would, can, can you do that the same?

[00:28:54] Jane: I think so because there’s lots of, so there’s lots of criteria there. I think about when do I have that conversation? Where do I have that conversation? How do I have that conversation? And so yes, again, how would I, how would I judge whether that conversation has achieved its aims or not? Is it, is it a one stop shop or is it, is it the opening of an ongoing conversation that we can come back to? So there’s lots of things to think about, even when you’re having a difficult conversation about how you have it and what the bridge of courage looks like, the decision to have, it looks like. What are the consequences? If I don’t have that conversation at all? What are the potential con consequences if I do have that conversation?

[00:29:37] I think I may have mentioned before on the podcast, but one of the reasons I think I’m quite fascinated is that my mother, when I was a child, she, she would just go silent for maybe for days on end if you upset her. And so that made me in my head, do all of that dialogue, you know, shall I have this difficult conversation with my mother? Shall I not have this conversation with her? What are the five different ways I might open that conversation that might enable her to join in rather than go off in a half and not sulk for three days?

[00:30:09] So, you know, good training in a way to think actually, you know, that’s what we’re doing all the time. We’re weighing up in our mind, oh, you know, this is a tricky colleague. Uh, they might blow their top if I mention something that’s a bit tricky, so do I just not bother and let it roll on? Or, or is it important enough that I speak up, but how do I do it?

[00:30:30] Rachel: So you’re, you’re really weighing out the pros and cons, but more than that you are saying the outcomes actually, what criteria are, are we actually looking for? But it’s interesting what you said about consequences. What happens if I don’t have that conversation or I don’t do this? In my experience, we, we oft we just don’t ask ourselves that. We don’t focus on, on the consequences. We focus on the potential problems that might happen if we do something, but we find very little time on that. Why is that?

[00:30:58] Jane: I don’t think we want to go there. Uh, and so the consequence is that I find, uh, in most workplaces that people deny or avoid, you know, a difficult situation and then the consequences that that goes on for weeks, months, or even years. And I spoke to somebody who worked in an NHS department who said, well, this difficult situation’s been going on for five years, five years. And I’ve never found a way to speak up about it.

[00:31:29] But you see, when we don’t speak up about something that isn’t right or that is impacting us and we allow it to roll on for months and years, it’s as though that’s acceptable. And then you have to think, well, what’s the impact on the organization or the practice or the hospital department as a whole? And how many other people are suffering because I’m not speaking up and we are not speaking up?

[00:31:52] And so we allow situations that shouldn’t persist to persist because we don’t have the courage to speak up. And I appreciate that. You know, very often people are may be frightened of losing their job. So there is a real consideration to be had. Well, if I speak up, am I going to be, you know, am I gonna be a whistleblower? Am I gonna lose my job, potentially? We do then have to think about that as a consequence as well. Well, I can’t afford to do that. Are there any other options? You know, but, uh, these are the very, very challenging questions, and I don’t have the answers to those, unfortunately. But that’s the, that’s the work we need to do is to say, well, if I’m not speaking up, what’s the consequence for me? What’s the consequence for my health of just carrying on carrying this burden, if you like, and not saying anything?

[00:32:39] Rachel: That phrase in my head, going through my head, what you tolerate, you teach. It’s really hard, really hard. So you’ve worked out what criteria you’re judging this decision on, and, and actually I find that the best way to do that for me, I, I’ve got a colleague who always says, what does good look like? What does good look like? Actually, what would a really, you know, great outcome in all these different ways actually look like?

[00:33:01] So that helps you get over the bridge to actually say, you know, good looks like being able to work alongside this person, for example. So actually that is more important than make me losing faith or, you know, et cetera, so, so you don’t get just stuck in this abyss, which it’s fear, isn’t it? And e ego, I’m thinking ego.

[00:33:22] Jane: Pretty much ego. We are all ego driven and we have to recognize it. All of us. Yeah.

[00:33:26] Rachel: How do we get over that?

[00:33:28] Jane: I think it is personal awareness. It is awareness that that is what’s going on. And how can we be more aware of our impact on situations and on others. It is just that sort of raising of awareness, that growing in awareness. I think that’s it. It’s just a journey, isn’t it? To, to know that, to recognize those times where it’s our ego speaking and not us. And most of us don’t want to think about that, I think.

[00:33:59] So a lot of this and a lot of, I guess the reason I’ve written this book is that it is a personal, every decision we make, every conversation is also part of a personal journey that we go on. And we have the opportunity in each of those situations to grow a little bit more by having thinking, oh, I handle that well, or I didn’t handle that well, or here’s what I think about, uh, life and this situation. Every little journey as part of life’s journey, if you like. So this book represents individual journeys, mini journeys, you know, conversations, meetings, decisions, but it also represents life’s journey.

[00:34:36] Rachel: And is there anything else that, that tends to be a real blocker for us on this journey?

[00:34:41] Jane: Well, I think once you get, and I, I think we’re almost talking about that, but once you, you’ve made your decision, you’ve still got a path to go on, which is why, you know, you, you’re only at base camp, then. You’ve still got to climb the mountain. And you know, there’s a part on the mountain, which I call the deep, deep, dark woods. And that is about this shadow journey, you know, what’s our, what’s in our shadow? What are the things we don’t recognize that we haven’t yet seen? And, and even when you start out on a journey, even if it’s going on holiday, you know, there are things that you haven’t yet thought about or that are gonna surprise you or that are kind of come up. And we have to acknowledge it’s not just because you’ve made a decision and it’s a positive decision, and it’s aimed at taking you to a better place, you’ve still got, you’re only at base camp. You’ve still got a large part of the journey to that mountaintop to get to. And just recognizing that there are still shadowy parts to go through in difficult times and rough terrain and things like that.

[00:35:43] Rachel: And just because it’s difficult doesn’t mean it’s wrong, right?

[00:35:46] Jane: No. Exactly, and I, I do feel, Rachel, I, I wrote a, a blog post about this. I do feel we live in a time where we are addicted to comfort and convenience. You know, everything’s there at a click of a button. You ring Amazon or you post, you, you know, you order something off Amazon, it’s here within hours. That’s mad. Um, you know, you can get Uber food delivered to your door. You can have your water temperature, any temperature you like in the morning. We live in this time of absolute comfort and convenience, but also crisis, and we’re also addicted to crisis. So we lurch from crisis and then we think, no, I want to go back to comfort. Who or what can put me back in that place of comfort and convenience? And actually if we understand that the inconvenience and the discomfort is part of the journey and part of the growing, then we’re not constantly cycling between crisis and comfort and convenience.

[00:36:38] Rachel: I think it’s interesting, Jane, you talk about the, the difficulties, and I mentioned earlier about this, that basic human need to have very deep connections and deep relationships with people. But I don’t know any deep relationships where I’m working very closely with someone or in my family where there isn’t some difficulties and there isn’t that, the hard work to do with being vulnerable and saying, oh, actually that was a bit hurtful and that was a bit difficult, and can we get, can we get through this? It just doesn’t happen.

[00:37:05] And if we don’t just sweep stuff under the carpet and, and don’t address it, then yeah, we might have an okay relationship, but it, there’s always hidden resentment and, and hidden stuff isn’t there, and so it’s tricky.

[00:37:18] Jane: So I guess that’s why I write a book, which is a little bit more lighthearted, because this stuff can be quite heavy and you think, oh no, I really don’t want to do that. Kind of, you know, I don’t want to go there and I don’t wanna have to do this hard work. But actually it should be a bit more lighthearted. You know, my, my values are to listen, to learn, to love and to laugh. And I think the loved a bit, the humor and humility are the biggest things for me. You know, we’ve got to approach all of this with humor and humility and say, actually it’s not all about me. And I can have some fun on this journey as well. And that is the whole point really for me, of writing about a mole, really, is to think, well, look, let’s just have some fun with this. Let’s you know, we’ve gotta go on this journey, but we might well enjoy it.

[00:38:04] Rachel: I did a podcast, uh, a few weeks ago with um, Yda Bouvier, who’s written a book about leading with your right brain. And it’s all about metaphors, stories, being, being creative and, and something like this. While it, it seems very simple, it, it definitely isn’t, but you can just grasp concept. Like you immediately say you, you’ve got a high mountain to climb. We all, we all know what that means, you know. Journey, we all know what the journey means. A swamp of despair or reality or what, you know, it, it, it’s really, really helpful for us to grasp some quite, quite difficult concepts. So I think it’s, it’s really helpful actually. Uh, next time I have a decision, I’ll be like, Ooh, okay, swamp of reality. What do I really want here? What, what’s going on?

[00:38:46] I do wanna just pick up this thing about the ego, though. I think if we can just get over the ego. I, I read a quote and I don’t know who it was by.. Someone said, if you don’t mind, who gets the credit, you can achieve anything in this world.

[00:38:59] Jane: Isn’t that true? Yeah. And I’ve been in so many situations where people are claiming credit for something. You think, no, I did that or I was part of that, and you are just saying, oh, it was all me. It doesn’t matter. And yet it does matter because, you know, it’s one of the things that does pull us all down into that nowhere abyss.

[00:39:20] Rachel: I think particularly in in relationships, you know, we had a bit of a set to in our house yesterday for something very trivial. And I went to bed fuming ’cause like, but I was right. I was right. Why can’t they all see that? I was right?

[00:39:36] Jane: Yes. I told you so.

[00:39:37] Rachel: And I was right by the way, so I’ve had the last word. Haha, none of Them listen to the podcast apart from my Oh, and my brother. My brother. Hello Christopher in Australia. Listens Chris. I was right. Anyway. And then half, you know, I, I’ve fumed for a bit and then I sat and I went, you know, Rachel, like, what do you wanna achieve? Who side are you on anyway? This is your family. You know, why do you have to acknowledge that you were right? You would do anything for these people. Yet you can’t even just like let it go. I thought, Hmm, let’s just check the ego at the door. It just doesn’t matter if I was right or not. It actually doesn’t matter.

[00:40:15] The criteria if we, yeah, what does good look like? Actually, good looks like good relationships with these people who know that I’m not gonna fight tooth and nail with them just, just to prove that I was right. Oh, I don’t know. But people, you know, I’ve heard that that argument is like that the who was right argument is, is like a fight to the bottom.

[00:40:33] Jane: You know, again, we do live in a, in a time where many, many people are relying on victimhood. And it’s not that we shouldn’t be, again, compassionate and empathetic to others, but you know, we have to move outta that but what, what could we do to relieve that situation rather than what can we do to wallow in the misery of being a victim?

[00:40:52] Rachel: And, and this isn’t that you let everyone walk over you and you’re, you’re constantly taking, taking other people’s naughty monkeys, taking their shit on top of you, and definitely not. But there is that line about actually, where do I just stop fight, fighting the battle here to, to, to save face?

[00:41:07] Jane: Yes. We could probably do a whole podcast on ego, Rachel, but, uh. we’ll leave that for another time.

[00:41:13] Rachel: Judging by what I’ve just told you. We’ll call it a therapy session, Jane, and you know, So I would suggest to everyone get, get the book. It’s great. It won’t take you very long to read. It’s a lovely little book. Um, and you can Just leave it around, lying around the house in the bathroom. Sorry, I don’t, I don’t mean to disparage your book, but I think it’s great if you put it next to the toilet, people will look through it and read it.

[00:41:36] Jane: Well, this is what’s happening, Rachel. It’s, it’s disappearing in people’s households. So when I send a copy or a copy arrives, it’s apparently sort of, you know, somebody’s wife or their child is pinching it, and and they go, where’s that book gone? Oh yeah, I’ve got it. That’s happening. That’s happening.

[00:41:53] Rachel: You need to leave it where it’s gonna be found, which is why I suggest, you know, put it on yourself in your bathroom. You might read in the bath. Anyway. If you were sort of to summarize our conversation with like three top tips, what, what would it be?

[00:42:03] Jane: Okay. I mean, just recognize that every decision, every dialogue, uh, every meeting is, is all a journey. So you’ve got these micro journeys. Then you’ve got your life journey, um, and that you do need a map and you do need a compass, and you do need some guides, but at the end of the day, it’s up to you. Self-determination is the key principle you decide and enjoy the journey.

[00:42:27] Rachel: Thank you. I mean, I. I’ve learned a lot along, along the way from, from you, gosh, with all the different podcasts, but also this, this little book. And I just, it’s just those images. Actually, I think the thing I’m really taking from, from, from this is the thing about the tiger versus the eagle. And actually being able to identify those people and it’s, it’s not a value judgment on all your mean person, you’re a tiger. It’s just actually the tiger’s in, in it, in it with you and probably not gonna be very independent. Choose your eagles carefully in, in sense it might be, might be different for different decisions, right?

[00:42:58] Jane: Definitely.

[00:42:59] Rachel: Jane, thank you so much for being with us. If people wanna get a hold of you, where can they find you?

[00:43:03] Jane: Uh, my website is janegunn.co uk. If you want to find the book, you just add slash mole slash, or it’s not, I think it’s not yet on Amazon, but if you search Jane Gunn, the Mole in the Mountain, that would come up on Google as well.

[00:43:18] Rachel: Perfect. We’ll put the link in the show notes as well. So Jane. Yeah, we’ll, we’ll get you back to talk about ego. That’ll be a good one. I might do a bit of therapy before I come on, I thInk.. Brilliant, and we’ll speak soon. Thank you for being with us.

[00:43:33] Jane: Thank you so much, Rachel.

[00:43:35] Rachel: Thanks for listening. Don’t forget, we provide a self coaching CPD workbook for every episode. You can sign up for it via the link in the show notes. And if this episode was helpful, then please share it with a friend. Get in touch with any comments or suggestions at hello@youarenotafrog.com. I love to hear from you. And finally, if you’re enjoying the podcast, please rate it and leave a review wherever you’re listening. It really helps. Bye for now.