How to Be Kind Instead of Nice (and Why it Matters)

[00:00:00] Rachel: Kindness fills the gap between thinking about making someone’s day and actually doing it. It might be as simple as telling someone in a meeting that they’re doing a great job, or giving up your seat to someone but not being quite sure if they’ll thank you for it or think you’re being condescending.

[00:00:15] Rachel: In healthcare, kindness is part of the job. At least that’s the expectation. But when we’re pressurised and busy, we’re filling in for someone who’s off sick, or we’ve had a bad day, kindness can sometimes feel like too much of a stretch, but the ripple effects of small acts of kindness spread far and wide.

[00:00:32] Rachel: This week, I’m joined again by Graham Alcott. Previously, we’ve had him on the podcast to talk about productivity and time management, but today, we’re going to talk about kindfulness. Not just being nice or pleasant or a people pleaser, but acting with integrity, clarity, and from a strong sense of values.

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[00:00:53] Rachel: If you’re in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you’re feeling stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options. I’m Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog

[00:01:10] Graham: So I’m Graham Allcott. I am the author of a book called Kind, the Quiet Power of Kindness at Work, and also the founder of a company called Think Productive. We’ve been working with some of the biggest, most exciting companies in the world for the last 15 years, helping them to do their best work, and, uh, have previously written a few other books as well. Most notably, how to Be a Productivity Ninja, which is my biggest selling global bestseller book.

[00:01:35] Rachel: It’s wonderful to have you back on the podcast. Graham, thank you for coming back for, for round two.

[00:01:40] Graham: Great to be here.

[00:01:41] Rachel: the productivity ninja, by the way, for anybody who’ve not got it, go out and get that book. Not only is it packed full of really interesting tips and resources for productivity, it’s just really funny. I really enjoyed reading it.

[00:01:52] Graham: I’m glad. I’m glad someone relates to my weird humor.

[00:01:55] Rachel: Yeah, I did, I did really like it. ’cause some, so much of this stuff can get really heavy. You can’t sit and quite preachy, but it’s not at all. And I really enjoyed it and it, it genuinely has some good stuff. And, uh, you can also catch up on some of Graham’s, you know, really key insights from that book on the, the podcast we did previously. We’ll put the link in the show notes.

[00:02:12] Rachel: So Graham, I wanna get straight into talking about this book Kind, the Quiet Power of Kindness at Work. And there’s so much in this, Graham, it, it’s Not just about being kind, it’s sort of like a resilience 101, I reckon.

[00:02:24] Graham: Oh, that’s a nice way to describe it. Resilience 101. Yeah. I’ve not, yeah, I’ve not heard the word resilience in relation to it before. Um, a lot of people have said it’s kind of like a, almost like an instruction manual for how to be a manager or leader, bringing a team into a culture of kindness as well. So it’s.

[00:02:41] Graham: I think everything I do, I like, I like it to have a practical element and I also like it to feel very. Human. So like what you’re talking about with Productivity Ninja, I kind of really no noticed with that book that a lot of the other books on productivity were very much, um, you know, that sort of American idea of like, be perfect, do everything to 110% and all this kind stuff.

[00:03:01] Graham: And so the first words of Productivity Ninja were dear human being. So I feel like there’s always been a, a sort of element of, um, being human and humanity in like all of my work really. And um, yeah, certainly this book is really taking that to the next level, I think.

[00:03:16] Rachel: I think that’s why it all appealed to me. ’cause yeah, being human is one of the sort of core values of, of our organization. And I guess the way, the reason I thought it. It was really very heavily about resilience is ’cause so many principles that you talk about in that book are the principles that I teach and we talk about in the podcast for example, you know that that sort of lizard brain, that automatic issues the worst. There’s that really unhelpful unkind self-talk that we do to ourselves. And also that thing about listening deeply. And we always talk about the way to not burn out as a leader is not be res, not rescue everybody. And part of that includes like listening to people. So there’s so many crossovers

[00:03:53] Graham: Yeah, loads. Um, and, and yeah, it, it’s funny ’cause there’s, so there’s eight principles in the book and um, when I started writing it, there was about 10 or 12 and you know, I ended up having to sort of combine some and sort of kick stuff out and there was quite a lot of, um, different iterations of that.

[00:04:09] Graham: ‘Cause I think, you know, one of the things I do say in the book is that you can think of kindness as a noun, an identity and you know, the hashtag be kind, I am kind, kind of mentality that we quite often see online. But really kindness is about action and doing. And, you know, thinking of kindness as a verb rather than an noun, I think is a really important thing.

[00:04:30] Graham: And so within that, it’s like, how do you do that? How do you actually be kind? Um, it’s one thing to just talk about, hey, kindness is a good thing, but then obviously the next question people have is how, and so there’s quite a lot in the book, as you’re saying, is listening and just all these different skills.

[00:04:45] Graham: You know, feedback is one that comes up quite a lot I think as well. Um, and just, you know, to, if you develop a really, uh, consistent culture of feedback, then Ray naturally that leads to more of those human interactions, more kindness, more empathy, all of that stuff that really helps to drive like really high performing teams.

[00:05:03] Rachel: And I love that you’ve talked about that straight away because I think one of the, the biggest issues in healthcare is, is a lack of kindness, but not in the way you’d think. So I think we live in very unkind times, and I think even over the last couple of years, looking at what’s happened in America and the unkindness of the current administration and blatant unkindness, not even trying to hide it anymore, like literally saying it out loud.

[00:05:27] Rachel: But in healthcare, like you’d think that kind was one of our core principles. And I think largely is I, I’m sitting here looking at Adam Brooks as I’m doing my podcasting and I know their core values were safe, kind and excellence. Uh, so kindness is just, we think, well, yeah, healthcare professionals are kind, but I think that we end up being unkind because we get the wrong idea about what kindness is.

[00:05:50] Rachel: And so I love the fact you’ve honed straight in about feedback because one of the biggest problems I see is lack of clarity and everyone being too nice with each other. Kindness isn’t niceness, is it? There is a difference.

[00:06:04] Graham: Yes. So, I mean, there’s lots of studies and stats in the book, which I talk about, um, that really point to kinder leaders end up being more successful leaders. But there’s also this, you know, almost like myth that goes on that, you know, the, the people who succeed in the world are always the bastards, right? And, you know, we, there’s some very prominent, uh, business bastards as I talk about in the book, sort of making the headlines right now. But actually they are mostly the anomaly. Um, they are mostly the exception to the rule.

[00:06:34] Graham: And so I think often we, uh, are sort of like forced in our culture sort of to, to sort of confront this idea that like, um, you know, being, being a bastard is somehow the way that we need to succeed. Um, I think the opposite is true and there are a lot of studies that back that up.

[00:06:50] Graham: But I think when people say there isn’t room for kindness in business, what they’re actually really talking about is niceness. And there is, I think, a, a really big difference between being nice and being kind. Um, putting that really simply, being nice is telling people what they want to hear and being kind is telling people what they need to hear.

[00:07:10] Graham: And the difference between those two can sometimes be completely polar opposites. You know, we think of kind and nice as almost being interchangeable. Almost similar. I think sometimes they’re the opposites.

[00:07:20] Graham: Nice is often what people do when they are shirking the truth. So nice is like, yeah, let’s just make sure everyone gets on. You know, you go those meeting, you have those meetings where everyone’s kind of, eh, eh, just kind of nodding. Um, and then behind, you know, the meeting finishes and then behind that person’s back, they’re bitching about it and saying That was the wrong thing, whatever. And they’re shirking the truth. It’s the, the sort of go along to get along kind of idea.

[00:07:45] Graham: Whereas it takes often a lot of skill to deliver something truthful in a way that also has grace to it in a way that is also for that other person and committed to their growth, their development, and their truth as well.

[00:07:59] Graham: And so, yeah, I, I think often when kindness gets a bad press, when we really dig into it, what is actually getting the bad press is niceness. And kindness is truthful. It can be very, a very brave thing. You’re often sort of putting your relationship with that person at risk by, you know, speaking out or like acting in a way that that’s really kind. It could be, you know, people often worry that it can be misconstrued.

[00:08:23] Graham: It’s also really skillful. And so a lot of what’s in the book is, um, these are the skills, like this is the stuff that we need to learn to be better in the way that we interact and, and better at, uh, not just talking about kindness, but actually bringing kindness to the people around us in our team as well.

[00:08:37] Rachel: Yeah. I love that thing about kindness being a skill because I think in the book you say there is no such thing as an unkind person or a kind person. We, we can all display behaviors that is kind or behaviors that are unkind. But yes, even the kindness person, if you’re not doing kind acts well, where is the kindness there?

[00:08:57] Graham: Yeah. So in the book I say there’s no such thing as a kind person or an unkind person. Actually, historically, what’s quite interesting, so as we record this, the day, the day before we’re recording this, um, one of the big headlines on BBC News was, uh, that children was surveyed by the Oxford Dictionary to come up with their Word of the Year, and the word they chose was kindness, right?

[00:09:18] Graham: And so I think in a world that even to chil, children are clever, they pick up on things, right? And they pick up on the fact that there is division in the world. Um, you know, my son’s school are currently going through a whole load of cuts, you know, and I was sort of trying to explain to my disabled son why his provision is changing. And it’s like, yeah, because the government have made these decisions over many years and whatever, and it’s, it can be really difficult stuff.

[00:09:41] Graham: And so I think children are, you know, I think we are born kind, we are all born with this, sort of innate, uh, survival instinct within us. And it comes from that lizard brain. It comes from the part of our brain that is responsible for, you know, survival and, and, and the evolution of the species. And it, and it basically says we are a, a, a sort of tribal species. We want to, uh, be part of that tribe. We don’t want to be ostracized from that tribe. Um, we want acceptance. We wanna work together. We, we know instinctively that we make. Better stuff when we collaborate with people than when we compete with people. So all of that I think is actually quite innate in us as animals, as a species.

[00:10:19] Graham: Um, and then I think we are just taught so much, there, there is a scarcity to everything, we must compete with each other. Like we are taught all this stuff and all the messages we receive. You know, if you scroll in in Instagram, most of the ads that you will get on Instagram are along the lines of you are not enough, right? And so we’re constantly taught that we are in competition with everyone around us, that we need to do more and be better. And so we lose sight of this sense of abundance and this sense of cooperation and we end up in a place where we are competing with everyone around us. And I think that is, um, obviously playing out politically a lot at the moment, but I think these things come and go. You know, I’m, I’m always an optimist about this stuff, and, um, I think there will be, I think humans have, uh, such a lot of innate good in them that there will be a reaction to some of the unkindness that you, uh, talked about at the beginning there.

[00:11:11] Rachel: I do hope so. I do hope so. But it does make me think, and I’d love to know your opinion on really what’s in it for me for kindness. Because it’s very easy to be kind. When I’ve got loads of time, I can see a need, it makes me feel good or whatever. But as soon as I’m in a rush and I know there a whole chapter on slow down, ’cause busyness causes unkindness, I totally get that.

[00:11:30] Rachel: But when I’m overwhelmed, when I’ve got too much to do myself, no one else is being kind to me. What, what immediate benefit is there to me of being kind to somebody else?

[00:11:39] Graham: Okay. Well, here’s the thing. Two, two things from that. One is you mentioned busy there. The biggest source of accidental unkindness is busyness. When we are busy, we are just not, we’re not quite in tune, we’re not quite empathizing, we’re not quite, uh, you know, being present in those interactions and we’ll be flippant with someone or we’ll forget someone’s thing or whatever. And so busyness inherently can lead to unkindness. It’s not that people are sat there at their desk going, how can I be unkind today? It’s just the factor of busyness, um, that makes us unkind. So slowing down is really important.

[00:12:16] Graham: Um, but what you mentioned there, that question of why should I be kind to other people? What, what, what’s in it for me? That, what you’re describing there is really the thought process of scarcity versus abundance. And the first principle in the book is that kindness starts with you.

[00:12:32] Graham: Um, when we think about kindness, we almost immediately start thinking about who can we reach out to? Who can we be kind to? We we’re very outward focused. And actually a really important part of kindness is to bring that back to, to being inward focused. Kindness starts with you.

[00:12:47] Graham: So you start by thinking, what do I need? How can I be kind to myself? Um, so I’m currently, um, in the middle of every year I do this, uh, program, I’ve done it for three or four years, um, with a colleague, Christina Kisley, and we do this program called Kindful Leadership. And we’ve just, over the last week we’ve been setting everybody this challenge, which is about slowing down and kindness starts with you. And, um, we, uh, we get them to, to sit there with these two phrases, um, which is, I am enough and there is enough. And we get ’em to write it down, we get ’em to say it to themselves, say it to each other.

[00:13:20] Graham: And it’s quite funny because these really simple phrases can have these really massive physical reactions when you really sit with that and, and really try and say it in a way that feels authentic, say it in a way that you believe it. And I think it, it, I think it’s because we are so taught that, you know, everything is scarce, there isn’t abundance. And of course, abundance doesn’t mean that we have everything we need and everything is great and whatever. Um, but just starting from a place of there is enough. I mean, there is enough food on this planet, um, to feed everybody. So, you know, abundance is, it’s a real thing. And so much of the sort of competition and division that that goes on is that we have told ourselves different stories about that stuff. And, you know, I think, I think, you can get into some very big geopolitical, sort of thoughts about that, but just on an individual level, really challenging yourself to have this mentality of abundance, and challenging yourself to say, I am enough, can be a really, really powerful thing.

[00:14:18] Graham: And so what that does is it rewires your brain away from scarcity and towards abundance. And then guess what happens when you then meet somebody else or you’re in a meeting or you’ve got your colleague there or whatever, like you are just already in that mindset. So training yourself in abundance and getting your self-talk to turn from that negative scarcity, talk into a more positive and abundance self-talk, that is the key to kindness.

[00:14:43] Graham: So, you know, we always think of kindness, the first thing is go out there as the world and be kind. Actually, you’ve gotta start with you. And when you start with you, it’s just way, way easier to, you’re just already in that mindset. You’re already in the zone. It’s way easier to be kind to everybody else then.

[00:14:57] Rachel: It strikes me as well, when you talk about truth and grace being the difference, being kindness and just being nice is where you actually lie. We, we do a lot of self-talk and particularly medicine, a lot of self-talk. Um, probably quite a lot of truth. Like you mucked up there, you weren’t good enough there. Fair enough. But there’s no grace with it. There’s no grace Even act up, even you mapped up there, but look what else you’re dealing with. You know, lots of other people miss up too. You can’t possibly do it all. Nobody’s perfect then that, that will help as well. So yeah, we, we, we never, we never start with that. And if we could and have that abundance, abundance mindset, that’s quite difficult to do about time though. I mean, you are the productivity ninja. How do you have an abundance mindset around time, when time is finite?

[00:15:41] Graham: Well, yeah, of course time is finite. I think. Um, one of the things that is really important within, within that though, is there will always, always, always be more to do than there is time. but we are also taught from a very young age, you know, when you think about the sort of mindset around school, you know, we think of school as being Right, we’re going to turn up in the morning, there’s gonna be this lesson, that lesson we’re gonna do this that tick everything off. Once everything’s ticked off, we go home. And then we take that kind of attitude into work.

[00:16:10] Graham: And in an age where there is 24 7 free flowing information at the pace that’s exponentially uh, rising, there’s always more opportunity. There’s always more that we could do within that time. So it is much more about setting the right levels of expectations.

[00:16:27] Graham: Um, there’s a story I quite often tell, um, about work life balance. Uh, one of these, one of these studies where they look at all the different countries in the world and they look at happiness and work-life balance and um, you know, and they sort of rate which countries in the lead table are top for work life balance and top for happiness. And you know, it’s like always the Scandinavian countries that come out top in these, uh, studies.

[00:16:48] Graham: Um, so there’s this guy on the news and he’s in Denmark. Denmark was top and they interview this guy on the news and they say, um, right, so Denmark is top for happiness and top for work life balance. What is it about the Danes? Like, what are you doing, um, that makes you so happy and having such a good well life balance? And he just said, well, it’s really simple. We just have lower expectations.

[00:17:08] Graham: You know, and I think there’s something really important in that there’s something very profound in that, which is that when we start to lower our expectations, but constructively and we start to think about, right? So what are the, what are the things that I absolutely have to get done today? What are the things that would be really good if they happened? And then also what’s the point where I have to draw a line and say like, that’s just too ambitious. You know, we all.

[00:17:31] Graham: Psychologists talk about the planning fallacy. We all overestimate what we can do in every day. Um, and you can counteract that slightly by even just looking at things like your calendar and adding in things like doing emails or lunch or travel. You know, often we kind of miss these things out and then we look at these massive black spaces in our calendar, we think we’ve got all this time, but half it’s gonna get filled with lunch and moving around and all this stuff.

[00:17:55] Graham: So, you know, just, just being aware of just being more finely tuned to how much time and how much attention you have helps you to set, uh, much more realistic expectations for what you’re gonna spend your time on. And obviously if you’re in a kind of, you know, clinical role and you, you know, sort of, um, on a ward and, and you know, those kind of things like, um, you are gonna have a sort of different set of, uh, principles around that. But like, I still think the idea of just being really finely tuned to the expectations of like, what, what, what can you do really well? And then what are the things that are probably slightly, you know, beyond the, the, the sort of limits of the time that you have?

[00:18:35] Graham: You know, humans are we, we ultimately have a lot of limitations, um, and constraints around our time and stuff. And so to sort of treat ourselves as limitless, like, we’re not gonna get tired, like we’re not gonna run out of time, um, we are setting ourselves up to fail. And so I think the more we can, you know, really tune into that stuff and set the expectations in the right way, the kinder we’ll end up being to ourselves, and then as a result to other people around that.

[00:19:00] Rachel: I love that. And this idea that actually anything you do is probably gonna take you twice as long as you thought it was gonna take, and giving you that buffer. And that goes right into the whole when you are busy, you are unkind. And I think the thing I beat myself up the most about is when I have been unkind to somebody else, the behavior I’m really appalled at in myself is when I see I’ve done something that I, that I would think is unkind. And, and often it’s because, yeah, I’ve completely failed to give myself any buffer in my day. I’m too busy. I haven’t been kind to myself about how I, how I schedule my time. So I love the fact that you start with that.

[00:19:33] Rachel: And feel that goes into your second thing. That that whole, about, that whole thing about expectations and lower expectations really important, but set clear expectations. Clear expectations is another principle of kindness. One of my favorite quotes from Brene Brown is, you know, clear is is kind. How do you see that sort of playing out?

[00:19:53] Graham: Yeah, so the Bre Brown quote is a full page in, in the book, but it’s clear, is kind, unclear, is unkind. And I

[00:20:00] Graham: think that’s a really important part of that quote as well.

[00:20:03] Graham: You know, Which is just this, this idea that if we’re gonna be, like, within a team participating in a team, or we’re gonna be leading a team, then, you know, having this constant check-in and this constant conversation around what are the expectations is a really, really important thing.

[00:20:20] Graham: So much politics and tension and guilt and fear and like all these really kind of negative emotions, um, come from, from expectations not being clear, and you know, the subtext around that, which is like, oh, so and so should have got all of these things done and they have, and or, you know, all those things that can happen.

[00:20:38] Graham: So I do think it’s a really important conversation to be having, especially if you’re a leader. Um, and so I talked about in the book the idea of the three Vs, um, which is the idea that you need, you need a, uh, an overarching vision, like where are we trying to get to? You need, uh, to be very clear on your values, so to know, okay, we’re getting to here, but like what’s okay and what’s not okay, what, what’s not okay in terms of how do we get there?

[00:21:02] Graham: But then the final one of, of the Vs is value, singular. And that’s a conversation of about what value do you need each person to add? And if you’re a team member, you are asking that question of your boss. If you’re the leader you are trying to set, you know, those in, in, in as quantifiable way as possible. What do I need from you? What does that look like? What, how do we quantify that? How do we make sure that’s clear?

[00:21:26] Graham: And I think, you know, good leaders have a really good handle on each of those three Vs. What’s the big vision? What are the values in terms of how do we, how do we behave as, as we go along that path? And then what’s the, the contribution I need from each of you? And I think that’s in a way like leadership 101, right. But also I do think it’s kind because it allows people to then operate from a place of clarity and a place of being able to have some control about how they achieve that.

[00:21:55] Rachel: You know, I guess in a business world that would be KPIs, like what are your key performance indicators? How do we know when you’ve met them? But in medicine, I can honestly say that in, in my 20 odd, more, more than 20 years of practicing in the NHS, I never once had a job description. I mean, literally never. When you qualify, you’re a junior doctor, you just, that’s your job. And actually, I believed at that point, my job is to do anything and everything, anything that anyone asked you to, therefore saying no was really hard because I didn’t know if that was okay to say no. Was it in my job role? And I moved into a, a salaried position at a, at a practice, yeah. I mean, may, maybe there was one knocking around, but it would be things like, look after patients on the ward. It wasn’t like, we expect you to do this every day, do that every day.

[00:22:38] Rachel: So it’s really difficult to measure properly. And when you do start measuring, all you can measure is like outcomes. And that’s so difficult to really hold people properly accountable to. So how on earth do we get that in the team? Is there like a, a quick fix way to do that?

[00:22:51] Graham: Well, I mean, coming back to there being three Vs, right? So the overarching vision, I think is quite simple within, within the NHS, right? Like, let’s have people who are, who are healthy and, and, and thriving and not, not dying. But then of the other two, it might be more difficult to put measurable values on, on some of that work. But then that’s where I think where the values come in. So what I’d be imagining is that you might have certain values around, um, stuff like patient voice or I’m sure like e equality and diversity would be a really important value in that and, and not acting in a way that, um, has bias or discrimination. Like there’s probably quite a few, um, things that you could point to there that would be, not necessarily measurable or quantifiable, but would be very clear steers in terms of how you should be making those decisions or what kind, what kind of work, you know, what, what kind of flavor the work should have, if you see what I mean.

[00:23:48] Rachel: Yeah, there’s a couple of things coming up for me. The first one, the vision and of course the overarching vision. Yeah. Healthy population, right? But then you’ve got all these different things, like if I was an A&E doctor, the vision for a department is to make sure that it’s really efficient, patients aren’t waiting in corridors, and they’re cleared and they’re treated and they’re dealt with really well.

[00:24:06] Rachel: The vision for the GP might be, actually, I want to prevent this stuff from happening in the first place, you’ve got some primary prevention stuff and also we want our patients to be treated and seen as quickly as we can in the hospital, but the hospital trying to click, you know, so actually each different department has got very different visions

[00:24:21] Graham: And that’s okay. Right? So you can have, you can have visions that are, there doesn’t have to be one vision for the entire NHS. You can have diff, you can have different visions as a leader. You can almost have your own culture

[00:24:32] Rachel: Yeah, aAnd I think for, we forget to do that though. So we’re like, oh, because, ’cause the work, ’cause obviously it’s to have healthy, healthy, happy patients, that’s the vision actually in, in some departments it’s like actually the vision is, is actually healthy, happy staff because then we are gonna get healthy, happy patients. It’s that Steven’s question, what makes the boat go faster? What’s gonna do that? And then the values, I think there are lots of taken for granted values. Like we don’t discriminate, you know, things like that. We don’t lie. We’ve got integrity. But are there things that within a practice it’s like, okay, our, our top value at the moment is community. So actually we would rather you take five minutes extra to greet your colleagues and have a cup of tea than, than, than efficiency, getting through the work.

[00:25:11] Rachel: So there’s that granular thing that, that people don’t really think about, think about doing. And then measuring an individual’s value is hard. But I think a clear expectations and having, and actually taking that on yourself, going to someone and asking. What is it that you need of me? What do you expect of me? And there’s the amount of sort of junior doctors or portfolio doctors that actually don’t know and haven’t gone and asked, and that conversation’s helpful, right?

[00:25:37] Graham: Massively. And also just like asking for the feedback, right? So here’s the thing people get wrong with feedback is that when we think of feedback, we often think of annual appraisals or you know, the, or it’s this thing that a survey comes out once a year and we go, Hey, it’s the feedback day. Um, whereas, uh, feedback is much better sought, administered, practiced on a, a very much more small but regular basis rather than these kind of big dollops, you know? Um, so just like little and often with feedback.

[00:26:09] Graham: So actually when we think about the word feedback in business, um, it really came to prominence after it was used a lot by NASA when they were sending rockets up into space. And the idea was, the word feedback was to describe, okay, so the, the rocket has launched, we need to be on this angle and this exact number of degrees and this trajectory to get to the moon, right? If we are one degree out, if we’re one degree out the other way, we don’t get to the moon. So what do you need within that? You need this very regular, are we on track? Yes, we are. Are we on track? Yes, we are. That’s the feedback loop. That’s where it comes from. That’s why we talk about it in business.

[00:26:44] Graham: Um, and so this idea of feedback being little and often allows you to course correct very quickly. Whereas if you only got, if NASA only got that feedback like 10 minutes later, you are already five degrees off track. And so it’s much harder to correct.

[00:26:59] Graham: So when you can just get into a culture of doing that, um, much more regularly, then you really start to find that it increases the quality of the conversations that you’re having on everything else. Ordinarily you would love that to come from the person at the top, the person who’s your boss, the person who is most in charge of, of kind of setting the tone, setting the culture. But if it’s not, I think it’s a really helpful thing as members of a team to ask each other and to, to ask those around you, like, am I doing okay? What more can I do? How do I improve this? How do I get better? How do we get better? And just trying to have those conversations, which again, can be quite tricky. They can be, it can be brave to ask for that. It, you have to have a bit of a thick skin to hear things that difficult, which is where the, the truth and grace of, of the kindness comes in again.

[00:27:50] Graham: Um, but actually, you know, just taking that initiative to, to ask for that feedback and, and to bring it much more regularly into play, you’ll really start to notice how so many other conversations improve as a result.

[00:28:02] Rachel: Have you got any tips about how we do that? Like literally what would one say if you just want to give some really quick feedback to someone?

[00:28:08] Graham: um, so, um, a really nice phrase I use, this is a really good one for like, at the end of meetings or at the end of a little, a, a kind of small project or something like that, to just do a quick, uh, sort of retro on it where you just go, uh, one thing. That’s what went well, and then one thing that’s even better if.

[00:28:26] Graham: We haven’t really talked about psychological safety, which is a very important part of the book, but basically, you know, this idea of psychological safety, um, which is that people feel okay to take these interpersonal risks, to, to say something that might be slightly controversial in service of the work that we’re doing being improved or that person’s contribution being improved.

[00:28:45] Graham: Um, and just a really small example of how you can create that psychological safety. Is this phrase even better if, which kind of, you know, it’s, you are asking for it. You are not saying to them what was bad, what was terrible, what went wrong? It’s just like, it would be better next time. And it’s forward focused, if we did this, how about this? What’s this idea? And so just that, that tiny little, um, sort of invitation to provide something that is constructive is the first step into then starting to have some, some bigger, deeper, um, even more daring questions around those kind of topics.

[00:29:17] Rachel: if questions really good. I remember seeing some team coaching a few years and it was a team that really were having some issues, so they didn’t quite work out what they were at the time, so we decided to do, we did speed dating feedback, so we lined everyone up and there was just and no, everyone thought this idea was awful. The team didn’t wanna do it= at all, but we got ’em to literally five minute question. What, what do you do well? What do I really appreciate? And what would be even better if in your behavior? And they had, I think five minutes each way. And then they moved on and they did three or four of these conversations.

[00:29:49] Rachel: And at the end of the day, they rated it like that was the best bit of the day, and they wanted to do it again and again because it was, it gave everyone a chance to feedback and it was, it was really powerful. So yeah. That does just take the, the, sting out it, doesn’t it? And you, you’re, you’re manufacturing that, that psychological safety.

[00:30:05] Rachel: And I guess if I, I go back to my original question, what’s in it for me? Well, I guess psychological safety is a massive benefit for me because people can tell me when I’m, when I’m that 1% off track before I’m 20% off track. If I haven’t given them that safety that they ain’t gonna tell me are they? And suddenly I find myself over here when I should be over here.

[00:30:27] Graham: absolutely. And in good teams, everyone’s contributing to that feedback loop, not just the boss, right? So it’s about the boss setting up the, the culture where everyone feels able and, and safe enough to, to contribute those things. But also you are likely to see something, as someone on the frontline, you are probably more likely to see where there are issues or something’s going wrong, either in, you know, um, the medical world, in a GP practice, or in, you know, a big corporate. I mean, it doesn’t really make that much difference. The, the principle still applies. I think that if you are closer to the coalface, you are gonna notice those things.

[00:31:01] Graham: And so to, to be the eyes and ears and bring that stuff back to the team, bring that stuff back so that, you know, you can act on it as a, as a bigger entity, um, is really, really helpful.

[00:31:12] Graham: Um, and yeah, so I think just the idea of psychological safety is very important in the book because what you find is that kindness and empathy lead to people having more trust. And trust is very much a, you know, a one-to-one thing. So you might trust your colleague, trust your boss. But then from trust, you can get to psychological safety, which is a one-to-many idea.

[00:31:33] Graham: So psychological safety, you can’t really measure, but it’s, but it’s kind of in the air and it’s the sense of like, do people feel okay to step forward? Um, do most people feel okay to step forward? Does everyone feel okay to step forward? Um, maybe contribute the idea that seems a bit hair-brained and it turns out to be the best solution to that problem. Or, you know, put your hand up with like, there’s something that is a bit of a problem, we really need to deal with that now or it’s going to snowball and get bigger and you can nip that in the bud before it becomes a, a bigger deal.

[00:32:01] Graham: Um, and often, you know, those things are about saying that someone else is wrong or that you disagree, or that you are the one person in the team that has these massive alarm bells going off in their head and everyone else is just groupthink on, on their way to, uh, to solving it their way.

[00:32:16] Graham: And so it like it’s really an investment. Like, having that kind of culture in place. So that when someone has those kind of ideas, a creative idea or a problem solving idea, they’re able to contribute it and they feel comfortable doing so. You know, all of that investment that you’ve made in building up the kindness and the empathy and the trust, it will pay off at the time that it matters most.

[00:32:35] Rachel: I always think of psychological safety as not just someone being trusting you, but I can trust them. They are gonna assume good intents of me. And that’s really, it’s a bit, it’s a bit meta, isn’t it? But, you know, I often trust other people, but what I need to do is trust that if I do speak up to them or muck up or a bit rude or you know, they’re gonna go, oh, don’t worry, you know, I know you didn’t mean it. They trust that I have a good intention. I think that is a, one of the really key things about kindness is assuming that other people have a good intention. ‘Cause I know I have a good intention, but so often I assume that that person’s just being lazy or wants to be rubbish, but that’s hardly ever the case.

[00:33:13] Graham: I totally agree. Um, I, I worked with a, a really great CEO, uh, a few years ago called Fiona Dore, who’s featuring the book. And her sort of personal mantra or one of her personal mantras was, uh, I don’t care if you screw up, as long as you own up and clear up.

[00:33:30] Graham: And it always stuck with me that phrase, because what that phrase is really getting at is, you know, innovate, experiment, try things, and then if it goes wrong, that’s okay, but take ownership. And I think just having this permission to sort of take those risks to, uh, to sort of challenge yourself. If you live your whole life in your comfort zone, you probably don’t achieve very much, right? So you do have to sort of push yourself a little bit. You have to sort of push the envelope, be slightly outside of your comfort zone, um, in order to change things. And often when you change things, you upset people or things go wrong, or you make mistakes along the way. And that’s kind of all part of the process.

[00:34:10] Graham: And so I think when we aim for perfection and not rocking the boat, then it’s really difficult for things to change for the better. But when people feel like they’ve got that ownership to try stuff and to, to figure out new ways, but do it in a way that, you know, if, if I make a mistake, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll own up to it and I’ll, I’ll take that ownership and then we’ll fix it.

[00:34:30] Graham: And it really created this culture where not only did everyone feel that there was always a better way of doing things, and they were, they were all focused on this idea of even better if, um, but it also just created this culture where everyone was just incredibly empathetic and kind and just, and, and really kind of relating to each other on this, this very human level, because they were sort of so, so used to having that kind of communication.

[00:34:54] Rachel: We haven’t got long left. I just want to hop down to the, the final principle because there’s all, all sorts and the other, the other principles, I mean, I dunno what, you just wanna quickly list them for people so people have got an idea of what, what, what they are.

[00:35:05] Graham: So we’ve talked about kindness starts with you, which is an important one. Um, listen deeply is a very important principle, I just felt like listening was so a taken for granted thing, that it was just taken as red. It wasn’t gonna be one of the principles originally. And then when I started teaching it, it just kept coming back again and again and again. This is about listening, isn’t it? This is all about listening. And so I, in, in the end, I was like, I kind of relented, and I was like, yeah, this, and it turned out probably, I think it is probably the, the biggest word count of all of the eight principles is now that one. What else?

[00:35:38] Rachel: People first, work second.

[00:35:39] Graham: People first, work Second. Always. Yeah. Let’s talk about that one.

[00:35:42] Graham: So that was, um, uh, that was my, uh, sort of personal mantra really. For quite a few years. So I’ve got this company Think Productive. Um, we, we basically run, you know, workshops and leadership programs and stuff within, within big companies, um, within charities, within, uh, public sector as well. And we had quite a few employees who, uh, we’re just going through these like really big personal tragedies all at the same time, illnesses, um, bereavements in, you know, sort of close in the family.

[00:36:12] Graham: And it was quite a young healthy fit team. So it was like, why are we having all, like, we just felt like we were cursed for a little while, like why we’ve got all these like, sort of personal issues? And, you know, a team of six or seven people, having someone away having surgery for two months is, is a big deal. You know, you are, you’re really having to pick up the workload for, for, for everybody else.

[00:36:33] Graham: And so what developed was this, was this mantra, People first, work second always. And it was really the idea that. If someone needs to drop everything and they need to just go and be at home and they need to sort their stuff out and then, and then come back, then the principle is you go and do that. Your, your, your life and your loved ones is more important than anything we are doing today, so just go and go and do that. And we will have your back, we will step up, we’ll fill in for you. And then of course, the flip side of that is when you get back and then it’s, you are lucky enough to just be going about your day and someone else is having that day where they need to drop everything, then you are returning the favor. You’re gonna, you’re gonna pick up the slack for them.

[00:37:14] Graham: Um, and the most important word of that phrase is the word always. ‘ cause what it means is even on the biggest client deadline of, of the year, even when we’re really stretched, um, even when we feel like we’re in scarcity mode and there just isn’t the the time for you to, to, to drop everything and, and go do your thing, it counts then, and you really have to, um, sort of hold to that. So that’s kinda like my promise to the team with that word always is like, you always come first. Your, your personal stuff is always important. Your dignity is always important. Your humanity is always important.

[00:37:46] Graham: And it’s al also like a reminder that it’s always, somebody’s always. So what we realized after quite a long time is that, you know, we weren’t just going through a bad luck phase in the business with everyone needing to take time out and all these, uh, just awful things that were happening. It’s like, oh, life is suffering, right? Like, that’s the default. And so we shouldn’t think about these things as being the, you know, pain is inevitable, we shouldn’t think about these things as being, you know, these, uh, strange, uh, sort of events. We should think about this as just being an inevitable consequence of life. And so if all of your team are fit and healthy and at work, then it’s still on you in those moments to think, is it somebody’s always, and they’re just not telling us? Is, is somebody masking something? Is is someone really, you know, living a quiet struggle here?

[00:38:34] Graham: And so it is all almost became this, this kind of invitation to make sure we’re always scanning the horizons and just look, having on our radar, like, does anyone, does anyone need more support than they’re getting?

[00:38:45] Rachel: I love that. I guess a slight alarm bells going off in my head, because I know that there are some sort of practices where yes, there things happen and people have to drop stuff and go, but then people are asked to be on high alert and drop everything and do the work just to cover the work. It’s not ’cause anyone’s got anything going on where it’s just because they are, the whole system is in, in crisis.

[00:39:05] Rachel: So that’s when you need the boundaries and the clarity, not the let’s drop everything, but for a colleague, yeah, absolutely. And knowing that people have, have got your back and people are always, always more important than the work. And I say that even though when the work is people, that can be difficult, but there’s always going to be more work to do. There’s always gonna be more suffering in the world. And you are dispensable. You’re dispensable to your, to your workplace, but not to your family or to your friends, right?

[00:39:33] Graham: Yeah, for sure. And it’s also that thing of, um, you know, how how many people will be on their deathbed and thinking, I wish I’d spent more time at work? And also, you know, when I think about it, like with my son, I just want him to look back and think, yeah, daddy went and worked, but he had time for me. He was around, you know?

[00:39:52] Graham: And I think, my friend Mark Leruste, who’s a fellow, uh, author. uh, he’s written this amazing book about storytelling, but he said to me a couple of years ago, he said, um, when you think about raising kids and you think about the work life balance around that, one of the things that you wanna remember is you’ve got 10 summers. And I was like, wow. So, you know, you got, you got a few summers they won’t remember, then you’ve got your 10 summers and then you’ve got the summers where they want to be off doing their own thing at festivals. So what, what, what are they doing? You’ve got 10 summers.

[00:40:26] Graham: And so yeah, that just really hit me when, when he, uh, shared that with me a couple of years ago. And so I’ve always just had this very strong mentality that, like I want, I want to kind of work my, my work routines and my lifestyle around that. And just there, there will be time when he’s older. But for right now, I just wanna make sure that, you know, he is as much at the center of things as possible.

[00:40:50] Graham: And so I think that’s just the different stages that we have in life. I threw everything into work for the first kind of, I guess, 15 years or so of my career. Um, now I’m in this slightly duality phase where I’m, you know, uh, throwing everything into work for, uh, just over half the week. And then I’m very full on, uh, childcare. He, uh, has, uh, scoliosis and autism and global developmental delay. And like, you know, he’s someone who needs a lot of care and attention. But that’s just something I’m just very committed to.

[00:41:21] Graham: So I think that’s the, also the other sort of facet of management isn’t it, is like, yes, you’ve gotta think about people’s skills and the tasks and, and everything else, but you’ve also gotta think about where are they in that cycle? Or are they in a phase where they’re in that career mode, they wanna throw everything into it. Or am I dealing with someone who is at a really wise soul, very good for the group, but also needs more boundaries. And I think that’s also a really kind way to think, because I think it does change, for most people it changes and ebbs and flows as you go through your career and you go through life, you know?

[00:41:53] Rachel: Finally, it doesn’t end with you. What do you mean by that?

[00:41:56] Graham: Yeah, so kindness starts with you, but it doesn’t end with you. Um, what I mean by that is, is if you are truly someone who is kindful, and I’ll talk about what I mean by kindful in a minute, then you’re someone who is creating the culture. You’re, you’re a culture builder or is the old, uh. England football manager, uh, the late Sven Goran Eriksson, uh, described it as you’re a cultural architect, which I think is a really lovely phrase. Uh, and that means you’re building a culture around you to allow other people to be kind. So yes, you’re being kind in your day-to-day, but then you’re also utilizing kindness to make sure everybody else gels together.

[00:42:37] Graham: Um, and I tell a little story at the end of the book, which sort of illustrates this, which is, uh, in the coffee shops of Naples, they’ve got this tradition called caffè sospeso. Uh, and it’s an Italian word that that basically means su suspended coffee, and it’s a sort of pay it forward model. So you go into a coffee shop in Naples, there’s a jar on the desk that just says caffè sospeso. And when you order your coffee, you can also ask the barista, can I also have a caffè sospeso, a suspended coffee.

[00:43:04] Graham: Uh, you pay for your coffee, you pay for that coffee, and then they put the ticket for that coffee in this caffè sospeso jar. And then someone comes in, they don’t have the right money on them, they’ve lost their wallet, their skin, whatever it might be, they can take that ticket out of the jar and say, Hey, can I claim this caffè sospeso?

[00:43:20] Graham: And some days you are the one putting the ticket in the jar and some other days you’re probably the one taking the, the ticket out of the jar. And I think it’s a really good, uh, example of kindfulness this, this, this tradition that they have in the, in, in these, uh, Italian coffee shops. Um, which is that when you think about what, what happens there, so I come in and I see this jar on the desk and I immediately think abundance, there are good people in the world, there are people who are, um, willing to put those tickets in the jar. It probably, seeing that thing probably inspires me to say, Hey, I’ll do a caffè sospeso thing as well.

[00:43:54] Graham: The person behind me in the queue, they get to witness this act of kindness. There’s loads of science that says, um, not only when you are on the receiving end of kindness, but also when you are the giver of kindness, also, when you’re a witness of kindness, all of you have psychological benefits from this single act of kindness. So the person behind me in the queue, they witness it, they have a ill dopamine hit. They think about the ripple effects of one is be kind.

[00:44:18] Graham: The, the barista behind the counter, they’ve probably had a really boring day. They’re probably, you know, uh, really stressed. There’s lots of things going on. So they get this little sort of moment of, oh, abundance. Someone’s doing a good thing. That’s really great. I’m really proud to work in this place. Um, everybody else sitting down probably sees it happen. So you’ve got this massive ripple effect coming from this one act of kindness of one person saying, caffè sospeso, please, and they put it in the in, in the jar. Um, then later someone comes in and takes that ticket, the whole thing happens again, right? So you get all of that ripple effect again.

[00:44:49] Graham: Um, but then when you really think about it, what did the coffee shop owner do? The coffee shop owner, uh, didn’t have to provide the coffee ’cause someone’s just paid for it. Um, the coffee shop owner didn’t have to go up to someone and and say, Hey, this is a bit awkward, but like, would you like to donate to the caffè sospeso thing? Like, all they did was once, probably like eight years ago, they found a jar and they wrote caffè sospeso on it. Simple, right?

[00:45:13] Graham: And what they did in that one moment is they created the vessel for kindness. They created a way that made it easy for everybody else to be kind. And when you see that, when you see that caffè sospeso jar, you think that’s an easy way for me to be kind. I like being kind. I’m just gonna engage with that.

[00:45:32] Graham: It’s the same as when someone at work comes to you and they say, Hey, Bill’s leaving next week, or Bill did a great job on this project, I’ve got this thank you card for Bill, and you write a lovely thing for Bill that’s probably even nicer than what you actually say to him in person. But just ’cause it’s there and it’s someone has made you being kind to Bill really easy. Or someone comes to you and says, uh, Hey, my daughter is struggling with this particular disease. I’m running a marathon to raise money. And you go, cool, you’ve made it easy, so I’m gonna donate money.

[00:46:00] Graham: So we all have these, um, uh, sort of predilections to kindness being made easy. And so I think for me, that’s the absolute illustration of kindfulness. The idea that if you can make it easy for other people to be kind, and if you can recognize that by either creating the vessels, or by being the vessel, then what you can do is just utilize this power of this ripple effect, and this power that once you’ve set up and made it easy for, for everybody else, then you are creating this kindness and empathy loop, this trust, this psychological safety that comes off the back of that.

[00:46:34] Graham: So that, that really is, is kindfulness in a nutshell. And um, yeah, it doesn’t end with you. So you obviously wanna be kind yourself. But beyond that, I think what’s really powerful is just recognizing that you have the ability to suggest things, to create things that make everybody else, uh, kinder and that everybody else gets to jump into those opportunities to be kind as well.

[00:46:56] Rachel: Something also struck me in the book is ’cause you have these little kindness challenges throughout the book, which I love. The one that really interested me though was that sometimes we are scared to do something kind, um, and you like challenges to get outta our comfort zone to do something kind. What do we, because that initially think, well, why would you be scared to do something kind? But I realize that I sometimes have been scared to offer to pay for something for some someone or whatever, because it just feels, feels awkward.

[00:47:20] Graham: Yes, exactly. And so that study was the BBC Kindness Test, university of Sussex, uh, study, which is the biggest. Ever studied, done unkindness. And what it found that when they, when they asked people about their barriers to kindness or the reason that people withheld their kindness or weren’t kind at a particular moment, uh, they found that the top answer to that was 68% of people in the survey, um, said that they were afraid of that act of kindness being misconstrued.

[00:47:47] Graham: Um, so it’s 68% in the global study, and as the fact that we Brits are just generally a bit more socially reserved and awkward around this thing. Um, I think it, it was over 70% if you just segmented it by the British answer. I think it was like 75%, um, said that was the main reason that they, uh, weren’t kind or were withholding kindness.

[00:48:08] Graham: And it makes sense, right? So if you think about you get on the tube in London and you’re sat down, and then the next stop someone gets on and they’ve got crutches or someone’s really elderly or whatever, and there’s no seats. And as they get on, you have that little moment where it’s like, I could stand up and give up my seat and I could be kind, be kind in that moment for them.

[00:48:29] Graham: Um, but then you, you are kind of sussing them out at the same time, right? Going, I think they’re okay. I think they can maybe, I think they might be offended if I sort, you know, how old is too old? Like, you know, all these, you have all these like little questions in your head about it. And then what often happens in that, that moment is you can see two or three other people all looking around going, are you gonna do it? Am I gonna do it?

[00:48:48] Graham: And all of this happens within maybe three seconds. And after three seconds it’s now too awkward. ’cause now it looks like, well, I didn’t really want to stand up, but see, because no one else has it. So like it very quickly becomes too awkward to do it.

[00:49:04] Graham: And the same, uh, you know, kind of scenario can play out, um, let’s say in a meeting where. Uh, we are talking about a project, we’re talking about somebody’s work, and there’s a little opportunity where, where you could jump in and say something kind and say, that person’s done a really phenomenal job with that thing, we should really just really thank them for their efforts or whatever, you know, so you could often wrap up that little conversation about the project with some kind words like that. But if the chair is like, we’re five minutes behind schedule and we’re about to move on, uh, you just have this little moment and then it’s gone.

[00:49:37] Graham: And so I think this is so the case with a lot of, of situations around kindness, where, uh, kindness is the, the verb, kindness is the action that happens in the gap. And it’s the gap between you thinking about making someone’s day and actually making their day. And that gap is often not there for very long. It’s a, you’ve got a couple seconds.

[00:49:58] Graham: And so the more, uh, the more I practice kindness and the more I’m teaching people to practice kindness, the more I’m really realizing that a lot of it is really about encouraging people to just jump into the gap without questioning it, without thinking too much about it, without being too much in their heads, jump into the gap as soon as you see it and kind of worry about the consequences later.

[00:50:20] Graham: And what you’ll find is when you take those risks, you’ll generally fine. It works out really well. And once in, once in 10, once in 20 whatever, you might have, uh, a thing that you rush to act, you rush to, to do something that’s kind. And yeah, maybe it is slightly not received very well, maybe it is slightly misconstrued.

[00:50:39] Graham: But if you, uh, if you don’t allow for that, that possibility, then what you’re doing is leaving those other 19 things undone. And so I think just running into the gap really wholeheartedly and just saying Right, when that little gap emerges, and it’s the gap between thinking about making someone’s day and actually making their day, it’s just so worth it.

[00:50:58] Graham: And we talked just a few moments about the ripple effect of that and all the effects of the people who witness that. Uh, the fact that it gives you a really good, uh, feeling of resilience and a reward chemical of dopamine and oxytocin and all, all these, these amazing things that happen, um, when we, uh, commit an act of kindness. We are leaving so much on the table when we don’t jump into the gap.

[00:51:21] Rachel: in a minute, I’m gonna ask you for your top, your top three tips. If people just sit three things away, what would they be? Um, but before you go, I just want to let people know that um, Graham is going to be our esteemed speaker at our next FrogFest Virtual event on the 7th of May, I think. So we are gonna get Graham in. It’s gonna be about time. So all about time management. I’m sure we’ll throw a bit of kindness in there, but how can we protect our valuable time and energy? How can we be more superhuman as we’ve been talking about, and much less superheroes? So if you wanna hear Graham interact with him, um, pick his brains, then we’ll be sending out some information about that really, really soon. So just save the date, may the seventh. So we are really looking forward to having you there. Graham, before we go, top three tips?

[00:52:04] Graham: Top three tips. Okay, so we talked about this one already, but kindness starts with you. Really easy to then hear lots of other stuff and then just forget that really fundamental bit. So kindness starts with you. If you want to improve your kindness practice, you wanna be kindness, the people around you, you want to create a kindful culture, it starts with you.

[00:52:24] Graham: the second one, I would say, um, practice. So there’s a whole bunch of challenges in the book and they’re designed to be done on a kind of weekly basis. And there’s kind of everything from meditations that will, uh, help you to develop your levels of empathy, which is a, a, a neuroplastic trait that you, you can actually develop more empathy, um, right through to how to give better feedback, how to listen better, like there’s a whole bunch of challenges in there

[00:52:51] Graham: . And even if you don’t get around to buying the book, just think about kindness as a practice. So, um, just, you know, just like yoga, just like running, just like creativity. What, what, whatever it is, the practice. Kindness is a practice and it is a verb. Um, think about it in that way.

[00:53:07] Graham: Uh, and then I’ll probably just finish by, um, the third tip being it doesn’t end with you. So kindness starts with you. You need to start by having that abundant mentality. But then really applying that to how can I be that vessel for kindness? How can I create, uh, the kindness in the culture around me? Whether that culture is at work, whether that culture is at home in some other setting. Um, but just knowing that you have a massive influence on the culture around you. And by taking those little risks that allow other people the opportunities to be kind, then you’ll really start to see some incredible ripple effects happen from there.

[00:53:43] Rachel: Thank you so much. And I think it’s also important to remember that kindness also gives you better outcomes in general, increases your impact in the world. So it is not just a, a nice thing to have. I think it’s, it’s totally vital and it’s the thing that’s massively lacking in our world

[00:53:58] Graham: Lots more science around that. If you, if you don’t believe that kind cultures get better results. The first half of the book, it’s, it’s, it’s written for the cynics

[00:54:06] Rachel: Oh, brilliant. So buy it. And it’s a good read. Graham’s a fantastic author, so I encourage you to get that. So all the stuff is mentioned, um, link’s gonna be in the show notes. Graham, thank you so much for being with us and uh, we’ll see you for FrogFest.

[00:54:19] Graham: Pleasure. Thank you, Rachel.

[00:54:21] Rachel: Thanks for listening. Don’t forget, you can get extra bonus episodes and audio courses along with unlimited access to our library of videos and CPD workbooks by joining FrogXtra and FrogXtra Gold, our memberships to help busy professionals like you beat burnout and work happier. Find out more at youarenotafrog.com/members.