How to Listen to Your Intuition

[00:00:00] Rachel: If you’ve ever driven anywhere unfamiliar with the kids in tow you’ll know what it’s like trying to block out the noise from the backseat or block out the bickering with your partner about which route to take, just so that you can hear the sat nav.

[00:00:12] Rachel: Your intuition is like that sat nav, guiding you through your work, your career, and your relationships. But I know that when I hear that voice in my head, I often find it very hard to know whether it’s my intuition, the sat nav, or whether it’s my fear doing the talking.

[00:00:27] Rachel: This week I’m speaking to business advisor Cathy Dimarchos. She helps philanthropists and other purpose-driven leaders look after their teams and themselves. There’s so much to take away from this conversation, from financial literacy, to finding out what’s really important to you, and how to say no to the work that drains you so that you can say yes to the stuff that lights you up.

[00:00:48] Rachel: If you’re in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you’re feeling stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options. I’m Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog

[00:01:05] Cathy: I’m Cathy Dimarchos and our actual business is called Solutions to You, and we predominantly work with conscious leaders, visionaries, people who actually wanna make a global impact in the world. I think at the core of everything is that we have a really clear focus, and that is to enable people to become self-reliant. We do that by actually supporting them through whether it’s, um, strategic advice, financial literacy, discovering who they are, more importantly who they choose to become.

[00:01:33] Cathy: And if I can just qualify what self-reliance means, it’s genuinely enabling people to have financial security, the mental wellbeing and the physical wellbeing, and so it’s never to actually play that chase game of looking outside to actually look at what you should be doing or who you are.

[00:01:51] Rachel: I love that. And, and that’s one of the reasons we got you on the podcast, Cathy. You’re incredibly inspirational. But I think for a lot of the listeners to this podcast, we have a lot of doctors, uh, a lot of people in healthcare, a lot of professionals in high stress, high stakes jobs. This idea of being self-reliant and, and this security thing is a really big thorny issue because we are very, very used to looking out for other people all the time and it’s sort of literally written into the medical constitution in this country anyway, you must always make the care of the patient you first responsibility. And that then means that quite a lot of the time we end up not caring for ourselves, not not paying attention to our own security.

[00:02:35] Rachel: And whilst we’re very self-reliant in the way of capable, we’re very capable of, of doing stuff and we don’t like to be held. I would say actually we do have a problem of self-reliance in that a lot of the time I think our physical, mental financial health isn’t that great ’cause we’re so busy caring for other people. I mean, is that a pattern you’ve seen in, in other leaders as well that you’ve worked

[00:02:55] Cathy: Oh, absolutely. Gosh, the law society, you know, lawyers, the medical field, you are absolutely spot on. You know, it’s, it’s the, what I call the basic things. You may actually recognize it, but then what you choose to do around that, you will justify yes, but you know. I can be the, I’m the only one that can help them. Um, and especially like doctors, you know, they’ve come to me because they trust me. Well, yes, but you, if you keep going, you’re not gonna be there, so then what? And who you’re then actually letting down other than yourself is your family, you know? Yes, the patients won’t be there either, but you are letting everybody that you genuinely care for down first, including yourself,

[00:03:40] Rachel: And that’s hard, isn’t it? Because we are sort of trained to react to the person in front of us, into the very short term issue that we’ve got, rather than looking long term thinking actually if, if this pattern of behavior continues, yes, I’m doing good here, right, right in front of me, but long term I’m not, not gonna be doing good for the people I, I love the most.

[00:04:00] Cathy: Do you know, first of all, I, I don’t think that we actually recognize it because, you know, we make that decision in that sperm moment of, and, and I can do this ’cause it’s just this. What we don’t recognize is that it’s a compounding impact. You know, it’s almost like stepping in mud. Well, you can keep stepping in mud, that actual mud is just gonna keep being a thicker layer of mud, right?

[00:04:22] Cathy: And so we place importance because we actually say so in, you know, in the medical field, well, who else is gonna do it if I don’t do it? And so there is an element of guilt. There is an an element of responsibility, but we forget that the responsibility is actually you first, you know, gosh, we have it in planes, don’t we? Put the mask on yourself first. Well, it’s the same thing. Um, somebody can actually come and knocking on your door, but you’ve already actually got other commitments. But you’re actually saying no to you to say yes to somebody else. And how often can you do that? It’s not sustainable.

[00:05:02] Rachel: it isn’t sustainable. I, I know that lots of people just think it’s very selfish. To pay attention to you in the moment. And you know, we’ve got this mantra, all these different mantras, put your oxygen mask first, or you know, put your oxygen mask on first. Self-care isn’t selfish. All those things, and everyone I think can quote it to you, but I don’t think we really believe it deep down.

[00:05:24] Cathy: Until you actually hit a crisis, and that’s when the realization hits. So you know, at some stage that cognition of, you know, what will happen should you not actually be able to continue because it’s no longer just about you. What is genuinely going to happen to, you know, your children, your partner? Maybe you’re caring for elderly parents as well. There are all of those things, but we don’t actually prioritize and contextualize the reality of that until we actually are in that point of crisis, or you know, we are actually incapacitated. So for some reason, that justification of keeping that out of mind is actually the reason why we keep driving and pushing forward.

[00:06:09] Rachel: You talk about self-reliance, and I find it quite difficult to get my head around what self-reliance is, but can I ask you, what problems does it cause if we don’t have any self-reliance? What is, what does it look like when you are, when you are not got the self-reliance, the sort of self-reliance that you are talking about?

[00:06:26] Cathy: So, you know, fundamentally it’s security if you are, and this becomes the perpetual, um, journey that you are on. If you do not believe that you are in a position to be self-reliant, you’ll continuously chase, whether it’s chasing the money, being a healthy body without actually understanding that this is the status quo that you actually need to get to, not to what somebody else is telling you, because that’s gonna be right for them, not for you. Your actual mental wellbeing, the relationship that you have with yourself has got to actually come from within, not actually by relying on what somebody else is telling you.

[00:07:06] Cathy: I think we, we forget we are individuals and we have this innate ability of knowing what is actually going to work for us and what doesn’t. So it is building all of those things for you to actually go, I intuitively know. I know whether something is right for me or not. I actually know the choices that I make. And the financial piece actually comes into play. If you do not have financial security, you keep actually excusing, you know everything that you do for that little bit of extra money, which then means that you’re compromising your health both physically and mentally.

[00:07:44] Rachel: That does make sense. And it’s funny, isn’t it, that we’re talking to doctors and lawyers about financial security, but I, I think it can be. The problem in, in the uk, you know, doctors are genuinely not getting jobs at the moment. Um, so there is that thing about not getting jobs, but I think there’s also the thing about we’ve never got enough. Even though we are paid really well, there’s never quite enough. And if you’ve got all the kids in private school and you go skiing five times a year, you’ve gotta maintain that. What do you mean by financial security? What would that look like for you?

[00:08:15] Cathy: So it, and it is going to be really different for everybody. So again, it’s that nuance of, you know, when do you actually think it’s going to be enough? So I look at myself and I made a decision, you know, several years ago, I don’t need to have the ongoing wealth for generations to come. My family is comfortable where it is. So what am I actually going to continue to work for to actually accumulate more wealth for them?? And so I, I can actually have food on the table. I have, you know, a roof over my head. I don’t have any commitments. So what is it that I’m actually in pursuit of?

[00:08:54] Cathy: So when you actually understand that, then you can actually make a decision. And, and it is going to be really different, you know, depending as to where you are in your life cycle, depending as to, you know, whether you do have kids in private schools or whether they’re finished. So it is all relative, but it’s actually being really clear about what does it ultimately look like and making a decision as opposed to that continual treadmill, you know, chase game, just one more, just one more, to what end?

[00:09:22] Cathy: So. For me, I made that decision. And then it was also a commitment of, well, now my actual self-reliance piece is actually about enabling others in marginalized communities to actually have access. And that’s access to me, access to my knowledge, access, you know, to all the things that they wouldn’t, so I pay everything forward.

[00:09:42] Rachel: When you’re working with someone, if someone came to you and said, Cathy, it is just a mess. I’m, I’m in a really prominent position in my work, but I’m not enjoying life, I am constantly anxious about stuff. What would you do with somebody?

[00:09:55] Cathy: it’s a combination. Um, for me it is actually just genuinely listening to what is the stress point, you know, because you can actually have somebody that genuinely needs to work, but if work is actually going to tip them over because they’re not in a, you know, psychosocial safe environment, then you’re not gonna tell them to actually continue to work.

[00:10:18] Cathy: You know, I would actually say to them, well, what is the worst case scenario where you stand now? And sometimes that might be, well, I would have to actually sell my home. And I, and then it is, well, what does that ultimately look like?

[00:10:31] Cathy: Because you have to personally feel safe first. So it’s not the finances, but it’s actually about crystallizing the finances to then understand what does that ultimately mean.

[00:10:42] Cathy: During Covid was actually a really good example because people were so fearful of losing their jobs, right? And I’d say to people, okay, so if I’m going to give you my scenario of if I never worked again, what would that ultimately mean? As a worst case scenario, um, I could actually sell, you know, my assets. Do I need to have my own home to be able to be safe in a house? No. So it’s really breaking things down to make it relevant for them.

[00:11:14] Rachel: So what else do you. To with people. What’s the shift that’s needed to get people to serve themselves first so that they can feel really safe through the world?

[00:11:25] Cathy: I actually think that it’s um, positioning themselves in, who are you actually here to support? Because most people make the decision with the assumption of I need to provide for my family. I need to, um, make sure that my parents are actually okay, whoever it is. So who is it that you’re ultimately driving, you know, that charge forward for? When you understand that, it’s then actually saying, so, um, if you weren’t there, then what, what would happen?

[00:11:57] Cathy: So it’s getting them to understand if you drive yourself to a point where you no longer can actually be the provider, their carer, you know, whatever, what would then happen? Because if you keep going down the path that you are, that’s ultimately where you’re going to end up. So what are the alternatives? So it’s in every situation, Rachel, it’s about crystallizing what their potential fear is because they’re thinking about an unknown. So let’s crystallize it. Let’s bring that to a reality. You know, your reality, not my reality. And talk that through to then actually find, well, what are the potential solutions?

[00:12:38] Cathy: And everybody will have something very different, but it’s bringing them into that state of mind and going. I now don’t have an unknown. I now have something that, you know, is actually realistic, tangible, and I have a, a path forward.

[00:12:56] Rachel: What tends to be the worst case scenarios for people? I can imagine some people it is. I’m losing all my money. I’m gonna lose my house. For doctors, I think it’s, I get struck off, you know, I make a mistake and the GMC comes after me and I’m struck off, then I lose not only my job, but my status as a doctor and my Identity. which is huge, isn’t it? I was gonna ask about identity. Is that, is that really what people fear the most? You think at the bottom of it all?

[00:13:21] Cathy: Yeah. You know, particularly in careers where they have invested so much of who they are to get to where they want to be, it’s a journey. And so that journey is usually driven by when I get there, this is who I am. And so then what happens when they’re no longer that, no longer identified as that?

[00:13:42] Cathy: And this is where, you know, where I say solicitors, um, doctors, even actually professors, you know, that have lectured for all of their lives. Who are they then? It’s that entire discovery piece that has to actually almost start, you know, go back to the beginning.

[00:14:02] Cathy: I ask that question whenever I’m in a group forum, you know, who are you? Um, because most people do instantly go to, this is my title and this is what I do, but that’s actually not who you are. And so I start the journey of who do you choose to, you know, become? When you take the last breath, what is it that you actually wanna be known for? And it’s not usually for your career, there is usually something else.

[00:14:28] Cathy: And so understanding that piece is actually a big part of the journey, the discovery. And most people, I think, you know, around the age of 45 start to question of there’s gotta be more to it than this.

[00:14:41] Rachel: Yeah, I can, I can, I can guarantee that just coming up to 50 this year and yeah, i, I really like, gosh, it is hard because, you know, there are these bright things coming up behind you who are much cleverer, or not cleverer, but just, you know, got more energy for start and, you know, got more insights. There’s all the social media, the tech, the AI stuff that, you know, my generation not necessarily naturals at.

[00:15:06] Rachel: And uh, you do start Thinking, well, is this it, is this all what, what if I did find out I only had a year left to live? Is, is my contribution been enough? Or, you know, what will I, what will I be known for it? You do start to, to think these things and it, it is, it’s quite unsettling.

[00:15:25] Rachel: And I, think it’s unsettling for people, particularly when they have reached the top of their profession. You know, a lot of my, my friends, my colleagues are, you know, medical directors and they are really, really senior. Still, they’re struggling with everything they struggled with when they were 20, 25, and it appears that seniority isn’t really the answer and make, making it in whatever profession you’re in, you get to the top of that ladder just to find that there’s another whole ladder to climb up. And you could just keep climbing up the ladders. But then that’s not making us all happy. So then, then what does, and I think when, when you have just been working, working, working all your life, you’ve often neglected what does light you up. And it’s quite hard to find that.

[00:16:06] Cathy: Do you know I, um, I actually run, um, private retreats and you know, I have some incredible human beings that are actually part of that journey. But, part of the discovery is identifying who is it that you actually are here to become? Because it’s not actually about a job, but almost like a, it’s the legacy. It goes back to, you know, who do you actually wanna be known for when you do take that final breath? You know, what is it that you actually wanna say to yourself, you know, when you are thinking I’ve done it? You know, and it doesn’t have to be, you know, anything other than, um, I’ve actually passed on. You know, the knowledge that I know that will be invaluable so that somebody doesn’t have to get to 103 to actually know what I know.

[00:16:53] Cathy: It is as simple and as, as complicated as that. Um, but everything that you do then you start living, eating and breathing that in your personal life, you know, in your charitable work. Um. If it’s actually your paid work, everything shifts so that it becomes a total alignment, you know, so you have this incredible congruency that actually is driven from within.

[00:17:18] Rachel: So if you’ve worked out what you want to become or what you want to be known for, what you want to be remembered for, how you might want to make people feel, as Maya Angelie says, what then stops us from becoming that? Is it that we have this lack of security and lack of self-reliance that we then, then can’t focus on it?

[00:17:36] Cathy: Well, first of all, you’ve gotta overcome the hurdle of what you’ve always actually done being the only identity, and so I actually say you reach a stage where you, the what you are actually here to do is so much bigger than you, that you actually know that you can’t do anything but.

[00:17:53] Cathy: And so what stops you is actually the fear of actually understanding the depth of that. Because the sacrifices that ultimately might come, could be the person that’s actually been with you for, you know, most of your life that doesn’t understand it ’cause they’ve not reached that point yet. And sometimes that sacrifice might actually mean that you’re gonna go on that journey alone and that could be scary.

[00:18:18] Cathy: I often say to people, I am the most privileged person on this planet and I genuinely believe that, um, because whoever actually crosses my path. It’s actually been intentional. There are no coincidences, but I’m so clear about what I’m here to do, um, had my husband not quite understood that I would have to make the ultimate sacrifice.

[00:18:40] Cathy: I’ve been married for 37 years, you know, um, and so I have evolved. He’s evolved. But where I’ve evolved is actually a very different place. He actually understands the importance of who I actually understand. I am here to be, but I also would be prepared to make that ultimate sacrifice ’cause I actually know what I’m here to be.

[00:18:59] Rachel: Yeah. I mean this, this, it is tough stuff, isn’t it? And I think, you know, there are, there will be some people listening to this podcast that are, are in relationships that are, are not ideal, you know, chose them what, 20, 30 years ago, and, and both people have evolved.

[00:19:14] Rachel: And while, do not just go giving up on a, a relationship just for the, the sake of it, there’s stuff to work through, isn’t it? And you wouldn’t do that without really thinking what, what, what you both want. But there’s no point feeling trapped and stuck and, and totally miserable for the rest of your life, which could be another, what, 20, 30 years if, if, if things are really, really not great and you’re not on the same page.

[00:19:38] Rachel: But that’s a, that’s for another entire podcast. And, uh, we probably to get relationship counselor in. Yeah, who do I know, who do I know I can get on the podcast?

[00:19:46] Rachel: But, um, I think the thing I just keep coming back to Cathy is how on earth do we know what we’re here to be? Because I think, you know, we hear all this stuff about resilience and purpose and meaning and meaningful activities and that’s, that’s really important. And I think there’s probably another thing to add. And certainly personally, I’ve had a bit of a faith shifts or religious deconstruction, you know, in the past few years, I think a lot of people have as well. So the, the stuff that they were born with and they’ve already been brought up with is not really working for them anymore, and they’re looking for different ways of expressing their spirituality and things like that. But I’m not gonna go into that now.

[00:20:24] Rachel: So you’ve got that as well. So you’ve got all that baggage from, potential baggage from the past. You’ve also got the, the massive identity. And you know, some of these things I think, you know, people can use medicine, like a religion. They really can, you know, the doctor is, you know it, this is healing people and all this sort of stuff. And it gets so mixed up with actually who we are here to be. Do you think it’s a choice who we’re here to be? Or do you think it’s sort of like there is this one purpose for everybody?

[00:20:51] Cathy: Uh, I think that the moment that we actually become aware of something, it becomes a choice. Intuitively, each and every one of us know what actually genuinely brings us joy. And that is pausing long enough to actually recognize, hang on a minute, I really enjoy this. Like, this genuinely brings me joy. You know, it’s not a fleeting moment. It is. It I can’t stop smiling, you know? So whenever I’m actually doing something in a group forum or presenting, you know, on stage, you know, I often say to people, I can in any given moment, actually tell you where I’m going to be, you know, on the 17th of February, 2027, I decided that that was a particular date for me. And I can step into it and I, I am instantly where exactly I know that I’m meant to be. And I can smell the air and everything shifts. I have the biggest smile on my face.

[00:21:45] Cathy: So we ultimately know it’s whether we choose to pay attention, but we’ve gotta do the work, you know, and we have to, you know, I always say, um, get your roommate out of your head. Start to recognize is what you’re actually thinking your roommate, which is actually, you know what? You’ve been sold as a story from your childhood, you know, from the environment? Or is it actually your voice? So learn to distinguish your voice from your roommate. ‘Cause your roommate is that annoying roommate that just never leaves.

[00:22:17] Rachel: Yeah, I Like, I like that we, we’ve done podcasts before talking about that, like the toxic governess in our heads that go, you should do this, and stuff like that. Yes, I like that idea of it as a roommate.

[00:22:26] Rachel: I think intuition is difficult, Cathy. I think you are a, you know, you’re a very spiritual person. You’ve obviously done a lot of work and you’ve really connected with that side of yourself. I think in medicine we’ve just been trained to be very scientific and very factual, very logical, and I think we find it really hard to listen to our own intuition.

[00:22:48] Rachel: And also, I don’t know sometimes what the difference is between my own intuition and my amygdala, inner chimp, you know, that, ah, fear, fear, fear, acting outta fear.

[00:22:58] Rachel: How do you tell, what is the roommate who’s just responding outta fear and threat and, and what is your deep inner wisdom intuition?

[00:23:05] Cathy: So when you actually have an instant feeling, that is intuition. When you have to actually think about it, that’s actually your brain justifying whether you are actually, you know, right or wrong. And that’s actually based, based on historical experiences or, or that story that’s being told. And then you can justify it.

[00:23:25] Cathy: So instant is intuition. You get that gut feeling, you know, it’s that knowing it’s instant. There’s no second guessing

[00:23:33] Rachel: Yeah, I, I get that. However, what I understand about the amygdala reaction is that often you also get instant fear reactions or instant stress reactions that I’m gonna upset them or, or whatever. So what, what’s the difference between those two?

[00:23:46] Cathy: Intuitively, you actually know it internally. Um, when you’re actually thinking about fear, instantly, I can tell you that that is actually an external source because you are thinking about something that hasn’t even occurred. So intuition is I have a gut feeling. And it’s not about fear And the, the, more you pay attention, the clearer it drops.

[00:24:10] Rachel: Yeah, that’s interesting. So, so if you, if you, you get this instant reaction to something, if it’s a fear or a, a threat to do with the people pleasing and stuff like that, what you are doing is you’re reacting to something that hasn’t actually happened. You’re reacting to something in the future that could or could not happen, and you’re feeling frightened of it. But it is an instant reaction. And sometimes we misstate that for intuition.

[00:24:31] Rachel: But if there’s a deep internal, this doesn’t feel quite right, but you don’t really know why, that is much more likely to be intuition because you probably actually can’t say why it’s right or wrong.

[00:24:42] Cathy: Exactly. It’s this knowing, you know, I feel it. I just, I can’t justify it. I don’t understand it. I dunno why I’m actually feeling like this.

[00:24:51] Rachel: So if you can’t justify it and it’s not based on something that may or may not happen or whatever, then then that’s like a bit intuition. It’s interesting, I was listening to a podcast with Alain de Botton on it, the philosopher, he was talking a lot about this, this intuition and about how people ignore it because it’s not scientific or whatever, but actually it, it’s very scientific when you think about your unconscious brain picking up things all the time. It’s picking up cues. It’s, it’s, uh, storing memories of what happened and things like that. So actually just ’cause you can’t immediately bring to mind exactly why you’re thinking that. It doesn’t mean that it’s not absolutely valid.

[00:25:26] Rachel: And he also said, and I love this, that that thing that wakes you up at 3:00 AM that is often your unconscious brain going, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, because it’s not being able to get through all the, the chatter from the roommate. And I’ve really thought about that. I used to really hate waking up at 3:00 AM worrying about stuff. And I think definitely you can wake up at 3:00 AM and overthink stuff, can’t you? But if you, but almost paying attention that, what was that thing below it that worried you?

[00:25:52] Rachel: Because I did have that a few years ago. I sort of just woke up really worried about a member of the team, and I couldn’t get outta my head. And actually it turned out it, it was ’cause they were totally in, in the wrong role and, and we had to resolve that. But it, it took waking up in the middle of the night going, oh my God, there’s something really wrong here.

[00:26:07] Cathy: So, you know, once you actually start paying attention, and that is the key, so I’m glad you said that, but once you start paying attention, it is so innate that you could be anywhere in the world and you will wake up in the middle of the night and go, oh my gosh, I need to ring.

[00:26:23] Cathy: You know, the number of times that that has actually happened, and people go, I don’t even know why you’re ringing, but this has just happened.

[00:26:31] Rachel: I remember sending a, a baby in, who had just been discharged from hospital. The, the mum, a newborn baby. The mum brought the moon to me that, that afternoon. They’re discharged in the morning going it, I just not sure. And, you know, may have just been the, the, the training kicking and going, you know, if the mum’s not sure really, but I was just like, oh, there was just something sent it back and I got a, a, a phone call from the pediatrician the next morning saying they discharged them to, they shouldn’t have discharged them, and the baby, you know, would’ve been dead if it had stayed at home. Uh, just, you know, and I have no idea what prompted me to do that. And we’ve, we’ve all got, we’ve all got stories like that where you just didn’t, and you just listen to yourself.

[00:27:09] Rachel: We always teach that when you are triggered, when you are feeling fear or you’re telling yourself stories, what you, you find yourself in the corner. You should take a pause, and just wait, and then make sure you are like back in your normal parasympathetic zone before you act.

[00:27:22] Cathy: So for me, you know, again, um, I always actually look at, first of all, am I actually trying to justify something, you know, or is this actually one of those nudges where I can’t actually explain it? Pausing is something that I do all the time, and the pause actually allows me almost to actually come back to ground. You know, it’s like I’m not then being influenced. It’s actually looking inward and going, do I have a subconscious bias around this? You know, what is it that the actual message is that I’m trying to actually understand?

[00:27:55] Rachel: And how do you actually do that grounding, Cathy? I want, I want details. I want like practical. What do you do? Do you sit in a chair? Do you go for a walk? Do you journal?

[00:28:05] Cathy: So if I’m on stage and something actually happens I will literally just, it is basically just put my feet down grounded, like actually see my feet, touch the, the ground, you know, flat footed, um, and literally say, I, I, I actually needed to just ground myself because I’ve gone out there or I’ve gone wherever.

[00:28:28] Cathy: So it is, it’s being present. I think Eckhart Tolle, you know, actually talks about being present. That presence is actually about grounding yourself and not actually drifting into whatever your mind actually tries to get you to pay attention to.

[00:28:42] Rachel: For those of us that aren’t so used to listening to our intuition and what we really want and who we really want to be, where would you start? ‘Cause I, I guess it’s like anything, like practice makes perfect. You know, the more you, the more you practice it, the more you try and do it, the more, the easier it will get. Where did you start with it all?

[00:28:59] Cathy: Um, paying attention. You know, what were the things that kept repeating on me to teach me the lesson, ‘Cause let, let’s be real. You will have actually come into a situation and you think that was really silly, like. I already knew that. So how come I did that again? And genuinely that is because you’ve not paid attention to your intuition that tried to stop you. But we justify it, and as much as I practice, I always say, Rachel, life is about practicing to live. It doesn’t stop. There is no destination.

[00:29:32] Rachel: So you’re not gonna tell me that, yeah, you are this master at it now and it’s dead easy and it’s never going

[00:29:36] Cathy: No chance.

[00:29:37] Rachel: keep going, practicing. Yeah. But practicing’s gonna be fun, right? Hasn’t it? And I guess I’m, I’m thinking a lot about this at the moment, that, you know, with all these sort of self-help techniques, these self-improvement techniques, we think that there’s gonna be, yeah, this time where we’re absolutely self-fulfilled and everything’s great. Actually, we don’t want that to happen because that would be really boring.

[00:29:57] Rachel: And you’ve gotta enjoy the journey. You’ve gotta enjoy what you’re doing as you’re going along so that when you get your destination, it’s like it actually doesn’t matter whether you get to your destination or not, because the journey has been great.

[00:30:07] Rachel: And I think what a lot of us are doing is we’ve got it completely the wrong way round. We’re self-sacrificing now to get to some destination in the future, which doesn’t help. So we’re miserable. And then we’re also paying attention to these negative emotions now rather than investing in the future as well.

[00:30:27] Rachel: So we’ve got this weird, um, weirdly the wrong way round. Whereas I think if we can start to overcome these negative emotions now that stop us having those conversations from making those difficult decisions, that will help us in the future. But also let’s stop thinking, putting all our eggs in the future basket and start really living Now. and doing what’s gonna bring us joy now, right?

[00:30:45] Cathy: Yeah, absolutely. You know, people say to me, there’s, there’s always this perception about, you know, you’re always so busy. And I keep thinking, oh my gosh, I actually don’t believe in busy. So that’s actually your perspective. So what is busy, right? And busy almost actually is like, um, a badge of honor. Let me just keep going. But I honestly, I never feel like I’m busy. Um, I love what I do. I’m conscious about what I do. I’m very intentional about what I do, and so I don’t genuinely, you know, partake in something for the sake of doing it. And so I have that incredible joy every single day, ’cause I love what I do.

[00:31:27] Rachel: I’m just having a bit of a eureka moment, Cathy, because when we say we’re busy, that means we’re filling up our time, but you fill up your time. You know, even if you’re not doing anything, you’re sitting reading a book or you might just be sitting, staring, staring into the distance, but you don’t say, I’ve been busy all day staring into the distance.

[00:31:44] Rachel: So when we say we’ve been busy, what we’re meaning is we’ve not had any time to do regenerative stuff or stuff we love, gen, generally, I think. So we probably wouldn’t say we were really busy if we had spent the day doing things that we really wanted to and that we really loved.

[00:32:01] Cathy: And you know what the art of that is saying no.

[00:32:04] Rachel: Oh, don’t get started saying, no, it sounds so easy, doesn’t it, Cathy? But it’s really, it’s really not. You know, we do with jobs and some bits of our jobs we really, really love. But I always say, well, there’s always gonna be those, those bits of jobs you really don’t love, like particular types of examinations that I really hated doing, or admin and stuff like that.

[00:32:24] Rachel: But as long as you know, you’re loving, you know, 80% of the rest of it, that’s great. I think there’s a lot of people listening to this that only love 20% of their jobs, and that’s just not, it’s not, that’s not a joyful life, is it?

[00:32:36] Cathy: Far from it.

[00:32:37] Rachel: But part of it is saying no. And people will say, well, there’s, there’s stuff you just can’t say no to, it’s part of your job. But then there’s stuff that people really fear saying no to. I mean, how, how have, how do you say no, how have you managed it. How would you advise people to do it?

[00:32:51] Cathy: Do you know? Um, I say no to all the things that I genuinely don’t like doing. Why? Because it can be outsourced. It’s much better for me to actually do the stuff that I love. For two things, the efficacy and the efficiency is actually going to be at a heightened state because I actually love what I do.

[00:33:08] Cathy: Then they go, well it’s gonna cost you. And I think, well, it actually costs me more for me to do something I don’t like to do, ’cause I’m going to avoid it. I’m probably gonna make a mistake and it’s gonna take me longer. So actually it’s not cost effective, so let me give it to the person that actually enjoys doing it.

[00:33:26] Rachel: Yeah. Although I, I’m get you a lot of, yes, buts. I guess when you’re in, when you run your own business And you get your own organization, it’s easier to, to make the decision to outsource stuff. I think, I know lots of people and I’ve, I’ve got all these objections myself, but also can answer the objections. But in, in the medical world, you know, they’re absolute strap of funding. There’s lots of people are sick, there’s lots of vacancies. So a lot of the time we talk about delegation all the time. People say, but there just is nobody to delegate to or to outsource to. What would you say to somebody who, who genuinely doesn’t have

[00:33:58] Cathy: So structure, structure your day, you know, people say to me, so how do you actually decide what type of work you do? Um, well, first of all, I’m really clear around that. So this is where my strategic analytical, self comes into play.

[00:34:13] Cathy: The things that I don’t actually like to do, first of all, I’m going to do them first thing in the morning because you can go into the whole human cycle, but you’re actually more productive, you know, at certain stages in the morning. So do the things that you don’t like doing first thing in the morning, and you actually do them a lot more productively, and actually choose how much time that you’re going to allocate to it. So don’t dwell on it.

[00:34:35] Cathy: I always talk about having multiple verticals, you know, in what you actually do. So understanding how much time you want to actually spend, you know, in your business, in your life, in each of the different areas, you know, of your life, of your business. So I am very, very strategic like that.

[00:34:52] Cathy: I also, I’m very good at saying no, um, I say no more than I say yes, and it’s a 20/80 rule. So I will say no 80% of the time, and here is what I have actually discovered. By actually saying, no, I actually do more of what I love.

[00:35:10] Rachel: Well, we’re very, we’re very lucky to have you on the podcast then. ’cause you obviously said Yes. to this, so Rah, I feel very honored. Um, Yeah. Oh, that’s, I want to dive into all of those different things. Where to start, where to start?

[00:35:21] Rachel: I love this idea of structure because yes, so you, this idea of you delegate, you outsource, if there genuinely isn’t somewhere, someone to outsource, you know, you’ve gotta do it, well actually make it so that you can do it quickly and easily. Like you said, first thing, when you are, when you are at your best, um, and more productive, so you might only then have to spend 15 minutes doing it versus half an hour.

[00:35:40] Rachel: And if the bulk of your work is doing something that you don’t like, then what on earth are you doing in that, in that role? I mean, basically that was one of the reasons why, you know, I am a former GP, is I didn’t actually so enjoy the surgery bit the, the, um, the, the, the seeing patients bit. And, and when we do our career coaching, when we do our career courses, our career retreat days, we have doctors that absolutely love the seeing, the seeing patients, bit of bit of stuff, so I know I’ve made the right decision to come out because I just didn’t actually enjoy the, the bits. I really enjoyed my medical education job and I as, as you can imagine, ’cause I enjoy podcasting and speaking and training and all that sort of stuff. So you actually got to enjoy the bones of your work, right? And if you’re not enjoying that, then please find something else to do. And you can do it. It will take a bit of thinking, it’ll take a bit of coaching, but do that.

[00:36:29] Rachel: But then it’s structuring things. Yes. And you’ve got things like batching. So do all those tasks at once and you know, schedule when you’re gonna do them and get as much help as you can. And I think the reality is that even if there is nobody to delegate or outsource to, actually we are very bad at it. And there might well be people that could do stuff for you.

[00:36:46] Rachel: And I think this multiple verticals. That’s interesting. So you’re talking about like how you design your life, both in and outside work?

[00:36:54] Cathy: So, I alluded to a date early on. Um, now I actually do quite a lot of philanthropic work and it’s work that, you know, I do, um, particularly in Africa, but. I dedicate, you know, how much time I’m actually going to allocate to philanthropic work overseas to my actual pro bono work that I do, you know, locally to within what industry, just as I actually do to the type of client. You know, so whether I’m actually doing, um, you know, large corporate cultural change, whether I’m actually working on scaling, you know, a small business into a medium business, whether I’m actually looking at, um, cultural change, it, each of those actually have a specific time that I will allocate and I will only do a certain number of at any given time. Um, and you know, once that’s actually full, that’s full, you know, I, I will not take that on. That’s why I actually said, you know, I’m very good at saying no. Because I wanna actually enjoy having the variety of what I, you know, or what I’m good at, and what I actually enjoy doing. And not be bored, you know, not have the same thing.

[00:38:02] Rachel: I love that. And actually, in one of our very, very first, podcasts, Dr. Liz O’Riordan, who’s, um, a breast surgeon, um, who’s had breast cancer herself. She was talking about what she advises her registrars, um, particularly when it comes to, so audit projects and stuff like that.

[00:38:19] Rachel: So obviously when you’re a doctor in training, you, you need a little bit of research. You obviously want stuff for your CV. But she says to them, you have one project on the go at once and when someone else asks you to do something, you say Yes, I can do that when I finish this one. You know, you don’t just add it and add it and add it. Or you say, well, I can do that one, but I have to stop doing this one. Is that, what, is that what you want? If it’s your boss or whatever. So you have this bucket of allocation.

[00:38:43] Rachel: And it strikes me that makes it much easier say to say no to. ’cause you’ve already got your parameters. You’re not thinking well, do I want to or do I not want to be? You’re like, well actually I’m, I’m at capacity right now. So you’re not saying no to them. Say, what’s that? Sounds like an amazing thing. I’d love to be involved. Is when I will have the time to do it. Can you wait that long, or whatever?

[00:39:01] Rachel: So you’ve already made rules for yourself. You’re not having to decide. ‘Cause if you have to decide, then you’re weighing things up like, oh, well if I was a good person, I’d do it or not. But you’re just like, no, my, my time bucket’s full right there.

[00:39:13] Cathy: And it actually then also circumvents that, um, perception of, you know, that scarcity mindset. You know, if I say, if I say no, oh my gosh, am I actually going to get more work? Well, I, I know exactly what I want to do, and if that bucket is full, that bucket is full. I’m not gonna say yes to something else or more of that just to actually fill the gap of, you know, what’s not full.

[00:39:36] Rachel: And I guess then it makes you be really picky as well because you’re like, well yeah, if I say yes to that, even in six months time, that I’m gonna miss out on loads of other stuff that, that’s probably gonna come in instead.

[00:39:47] Cathy: Exactly.

[00:39:48] Rachel: I think that’s, when I think about our listeners and medics and healthcare professionals, there are always extra projects that they’ve got on, the extra things they’re being asked to do. I was talking to a, a friend the other day, they’re being asked to take on a particular role in a particular college. And, you know, they weren’t sure, it seemed like a really good opportunity, but did they want to do it or not? And, um, it was because it had been there and they’d been asked. It’s flattering to be asked. It’s nice to be asked. It’s nice to be involved with stuff. But, um, these opportunities come in all the time, don’t they? And. we, we often just jump at it ’cause because we’ve been asked and then we feel guilty by saying no. But actually if you say no, they’ll ask somebody else, and that, that other person will probably be just as, just as good, probably better at it if you are not really loving it.

[00:40:36] Rachel: I mean we have in one of the communities we run Permission to Thrive this saying, which is originally from Derek Sives, who I absolutely love his work, but yeah, it’s either a hell yeah or it’s a no.

[00:40:45] Cathy: Yes, exactly.

[00:40:47] Rachel: How do you know if it’s a Hell yeah. Are we back to the old intuition?

[00:40:51] Cathy: Uh, yes. Somebody actually asked me, how do you decide whether you’re going to go ahead with something? And the first thing is, um, I intuitively know. And it’s a very, very quick yes. Um, just as much as it is a no. And then I actually look at the analysis of it, then I, then the strategy actually kicks in.

[00:41:10] Rachel: so intuition first, not based on fear, but based on the sort of deep inner knowing that you probably can’t explain, then you think about the strategy of how you’re gonna do it.

[00:41:20] Cathy: And, uh, I’m very purpose driven. So, you know, if it’s actually about a business, if that business doesn’t actually incorporate, you know, some sort of social impact, it’s a straight out, no.

[00:41:31] Rachel: And how much are you driven by finance? Because like we all need to make ends meet, and I guess that’s a, that is something that is a difficult, you know, if you’re in a a GP practice, you’ve, you’ve gotta pay your staff, you’ve gotta keep the lights on, and there are lots of things you, you’d love to do that do have impact, but they cost money, you might not have that.

[00:41:48] Rachel: So you have to pay attention to finance. So how does that work when the two actually might contradict each other?

[00:41:53] Cathy: So I always say money is actually energy. So you need to actually know what your money needs to be delivering for you. You know? So, and when you understand that, then you actually do the work the other way around.

[00:42:06] Cathy: You know, so for me, here’s my driver. The more money I make means the more projects that I can actually run. But it won’t actually be to the compromise of, I would, I will not take on a job if that actual, it’s a transaction. Full stop.

[00:42:21] Cathy: So there are certain parameters that I actually look at, you know, first of all around what is this actually going to generate, and is it actually totally in alignment? Because, you know, everything is energy for me. So if I’m gonna be doing work that’s not going to align because it is, you know, just lining somebody else’s pockets, I’ve done enough of that in my life. I’m not interested, so I’m certainly not gonna line my own pockets

[00:42:45] Rachel: I would say we’ve all done stuff because it paid well and then we totally regretted doing it, and it’s been a absolute joy suffer. And the money does not make up for the pain of having to do something that you don’t enjoy, you don’t love, or is not in alignment with you. Totally. I’ve, I’ve got much more joy from doing free stuff that’s been in total alignment than paid stuff, which which really hasn’t.

[00:43:09] Cathy: So when you actually make the driver the thing that you love, the money actually comes. That includes pro bono stuff. And as odd as that may sound, that is the reality.

[00:43:22] Rachel: Do you believe that the money always does flow when you are in alignment? Or do people get into issues? So I, I think the biggest fear is someone does what they feel really aligned with, and then just the money doesn’t come in and then they’re completely destitutes.

[00:43:38] Cathy: I will actually say that what happens in that situation, doubt comes in and the second that doubt comes in, everything actually shifts. So you would actually understand, right? Neuroscience has actually shown us that what we actually think is what actually becomes our reality. So the second we actually shift our line of thinking to, oh my gosh, I don’t think I’ve done the right thing and now I’m gonna be in crisis, well, that’s actually what happens, you then are in crisis.

[00:44:07] Cathy: You can’t actually have, you know, one moment of belief and then you actually go into doubt because the doubt will actually overrule. And so that’s what actually happens with money as well.

[00:44:18] Rachel: So you can get to these very fear-based mindsets. Yes. And then you end up chasing the wrong thing and, and so on and so forth. Yeah, We do a whole, whole other thing about money mindset. yeah.

[00:44:27] Rachel: Out of everything we’ve talked about, what would be your sort of the, the three main things that you’d want people really to go away with a, an, an understanding of?

[00:44:36] Cathy: know what? Pause. Pause in the moment to genuinely understand who is it that you actually choose to become. Playing the chase game isn’t going to give you what you want. Believe, you know, believe in what it is that’s actually surfacing for you because the second you actually trust that, um, the faster your reality actually comes to fruition.

[00:44:58] Rachel: What do you do once you’ve believed in it? I know that’s like the million dollar question, but I could believe in anything, I guess.

[00:45:08] Cathy: If I was actually standing right next to you, um, you know, I would actually be able to say to you, okay, well if you believe that you are a frog, I can tell you that you could tell me that you believe that you’re a frog, but your body will actually tell me that it’s not. And that’ll actually be a muscle test. And we all know that, right?

[00:45:25] Cathy: So you can see the reality of what you say you believe is actually the reality. You cannot actually tell yourself a lie and say that, that’s my reality. ’cause it’s not so subconsciously, you know that.

[00:45:38] Rachel: Yes, and we all know that you are not a frog. I had get that one in. Yeah. But there is, there is about, there is something about believing in possibilities that aren’t there yet though, as well. I, I, I guess even if you can’t actually see that reality.

[00:45:53] Cathy: Yes.

[00:45:54] Rachel: That’s hope, I think, isn’t it? That’s what, that’s what hope is.

[00:45:57] Cathy: It’s hope to the point of crystallization and where you actually know what that reality looks like.

[00:46:02] Rachel: Wonderful. Oh, we could keep talking for ages, Cathy, but I think we’re probably gonna have to leave it there, um, and get you back on the podcast another time if that’s okay. Cathy, if people wanna find out more about you and about your work, where could they go?

[00:46:14] Cathy: Um, my website, so solutions2you.com.au, and the two is the number two. Um, that’s probably the easiest.

[00:46:22] Rachel: Lovely to speak to you and we’ll speak soon.

[00:46:24] Cathy: Thank you. See you. Bye.

[00:46:27] Rachel: Thanks for listening. Don’t forget, you can get extra bonus episodes and audio courses along with unlimited access to our library of videos and CPD workbooks by joining FrogXtra and FrogXtra Gold, our memberships to help busy professionals like you beat burnout and work happier. Find out more at youarenotafrog.com/members.