How to Leave Work on Time

[00:00:00] Rachel: Behaviour change is hard. I think that’s something we can all admit. Whether you’re a GP helping a patient be more active or you’re a leader who wants members of your team to take more responsibility, working towards a long term change isn’t always easy.

[00:00:14] Rachel: Now this week I’m talking to Alasdair Cant. He’s an expert in behaviour change and motivational interviewing. Now in this episode, I asked Alasdair to coach me through one of my own challenges, which is shutting down properly at the end of the day, trying not to fit in just one more task or one more email before I head to spend time with my family.

[00:00:32] Rachel: Now, I no longer see patients, so if I leave work on time, frankly, no one’s going to die. But whenever I’m doing talks or facilitating our Shapes training, I get lots and lots of feedback that people just find it really, really difficult to shut down at the end of the day. And people feel that leaving work on time is something that they just can’t do, even if there aren’t any urgent tasks. Not necessarily because they’re worried about patient harm, mainly because they’re worried about letting their colleagues down.

[00:00:58] Rachel: So wherever you are in the cycle of behaviour change, whether you’re just giving it some thought or whether you’ve put stuff in place and you’re now facing a setback, this session with Alasdair will give you some practical and more importantly, achievable steps to help you get closer to what you really want, and be kinder to yourself.

[00:01:17] Rachel: If you’re in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you’re feeling stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options. I’m Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog

[00:01:31] Alasdair: My name is Alasdair Cant. I work as an independent, uh, facilitator and coach. Uh, I’m a behavior change coach. And that came around originally from background in education. And then I worked in, uh, really by chance within the arena of dependence and addiction. And, uh, that got me interested in, uh, behavior change.

[00:01:57] Alasdair: And I, I use an approach called motivational interviewing, which is usually one-to-one. It can be within groups, but it’s a, a way of having conversations around behavior change, growth that increases people’s, uh, motivation and commitment to change.

[00:02:14] Rachel: You are in, in my mind, Alasdair, you’re Mr. Motivational interviewing and the, the experience and the expertise that you’ve got, and I’ve been wanting to get you on the podcast for a long time. Uh, as you know, we’ve been talking about it for a while because behavior change is, is the thing, isn’t it?

[00:02:32] Rachel: You know, you could read as much self-help as you want. You can read as much stuff about, well, what do I need to do to get, to feel better, to think better, to eat better, to live better? And I mean, I often get all this stuff stuck in my head. I’m like, what a great idea. But when it comes actually down to doing it, that’s, that’s when the proverbial hits the fan. And it doesn’t actually happen.

[00:02:54] Rachel: Uh, but you’ve got a, a really wonderful methodology for making it happen. And, uh, uh, I mean, so much so that you were the, you were the featured coach, weren’t you on the, that podcast, A Thorough Examination with Dr. Xand and Dr. Chris.

[00:03:08] Alasdair: Yeah. And, and, uh, I mean, I’m not sure about making it happen. I certainly, we can facilitate, uh, conversations that allow something different, uh, to, to happen for, for individuals. And, and yes, that was a, a, a good example of, often I have to work under quite some pressure. There’s a not a lot of time, most of the conversations I have is where people don’t want to change anything. And, uh, that’s okay. And then we, uh, we work with that.

[00:03:33] Alasdair: So, um, it, it, it’s an approach which really doesn’t have, uh, a strong driving agenda of I’ve got to change because actually, what we try to do is ensure that people have autonomy where they can, they have, um, you know, the, the, the jargon is agency for their own change.

[00:03:52] Alasdair: And once we let go of having to do this thing of behavior change, which creates a kind of tyranny, um, then actually something else can happen.

[00:04:02] Rachel: Yeah.

[00:04:02] Rachel: We’ll put the link to that podcast. It says a really beautiful example of actually you digging down deeper, get to the underlying agenda. And it turned out not to be about the, the behavior that you saw at all. It was all about the underlying, the underlying stuff that goes, that was going on for them.

[00:04:18] Alasdair: it often is. And, and that’s the thing when we listen, well, it’s therapeutic, it’s not therapy. And we’ll often hear something different that, um, people have got caught in some kind of tussle with somebody else, and their energy is about, um, keeping people at bay or um, just getting people off the backs, all of that stuff.

[00:04:37] Rachel: So a lot of people listening to this podcast will be doctors, um, nurses, other healthcare professionals that obviously really want to help their patients change their, their behavior. This podcast is predominantly for us to help us beat burnout and work happier.

[00:04:52] Rachel: And so the sort of behavior change I’d love to talk to you about is stuff that actually we do want to change, we really want to change. So there’s not that blocker of we don’t want to ’cause Yes, trying to change helps someone change their behavior and they don’t really want to. That’s, that’s, uh, that’s really hard. But, but what stops us changing when we really want to?

[00:05:12] Alasdair: it, it’s, yes. Uh, what’s what we notice for, uh, most, if not all of us, we are, um, creatures of routine and, um, routines become surprisingly comfortable. And while we may want to, uh, change and, um, uh, if we take an example of, whatever it is, maybe snacking, uh, in the evenings or, or whatever the, the behavior is, or, uh, talking with somebody about their, whether it’s their weight or their drinking, we may want that for ourselves or for somebody else. And it just feels a bit overwhelming. Uh, because of what’s to happen. And, uh, also we underestimate the ex the extent to which routines are comforting.

[00:05:59] Alasdair: Now, if I take a very little example, um, you know, I, I was working with a, a group, uh, yesterday, uh, a group of 25 people. We were going, uh, in and out of a room over lunchtime and break times, just classic sort of training thing. We noticed that people go to their chair, their space, we, we go back, we default back to where, where’s my seat, my place? It’s even little things in life.

[00:06:26] Alasdair: And actually, you know, when we people get into routines in the evenings or things, there are certain comforting routines we have, and it’s trying to be mindful or aware of those because we often do things without thinking.

[00:06:39] Alasdair: So that is, those are two first things that I’d, I’d explore with people. Um, because what’s happened is as, as we’ve got into patterns of behavior, it’s become almost automatic. So the tram line we’re on becomes a furrow, becomes a rut, it gets deeper and deeper, and that’s where it gets more comforting. And it’s actually surprisingly hard to break that. We can sometimes for a short time, but then there’s a gravitational pull back into the routine.

[00:07:08] Rachel: And I’m presuming that when, when people say, Well, I want to change what I’m thinking, yeah, I would love to, yeah, give up sugar and be, be really healthy, but actually I like eating it. So even though I want to, I, I, I want the, out the, outcome of it. But actually the, other outcome, the, the short term outcome of when I’m doing it is just, you know, gives a bit of dopamine. When you’ve got that energy crash, it’s giving you that, that short term win.

[00:07:32] Rachel: And it must be very hard to, well, I, I know it’s very hard to overcome that, that that short-termism of the, you know, you’ve either, you are either going away from something, you’re either trying to avoid something and that gives you some relief. ‘Cause I’ve avoided it or I, it, I’ve got some short-term dopamine even though we’ve not done the thing that we want, want to do in the long term. So is it that you’re just always fighting a losing battle with behavior change?

[00:07:55] Alasdair: Well, the, the, the, it’s interesting to listen to your language there. You know, give up sugar. That’s a, that’s a big statement. And your body language momentarily reached right out to the edge. So what we’re getting is a kind of polarization. And this is very common. This is what people, people have this sort of, uh, it, it, it’s the top of the mountain stuff.

[00:08:15] Alasdair: Now, actually, if we do that once or twice, that’s a step. And just being aware and being kind to ourselves, it is a really addictive substance. It’s not gonna be easy, but actually if we managed to do it once a while, what happened there? And that’s a small success.

[00:08:30] Alasdair: So we, we listen very carefully to the language and actually always try to work in a reality, not as with some sort of, an, an ambition which just can, can feel so daunting. We don’t really get to the start line or we do, and then we feel, oh, we’ll never get there.

[00:08:47] Rachel: I’m just conscious that what I don’t wanna do is focus on the, the little things like, you know, giving up sugar. That’s something everybody says I want to do, give you up sugar, I wanna drink less, I wanna spend less time on my phone. Does this motivational interviewing approach to behavior change work for some of the biggest stuff, like leaving work at a decent time, like setting, setting boundaries around what we’re doing and stuff like that? Or is it only for these tiny little sort of lifestyle stuff?

[00:09:15] Alasdair: Uh, just yesterday I was working in that very arena with, uh, a group of, directorate, uh, heads of service, very senior leaders, um, uh, across health, education, uh, social, uh, services. And, um, what you’ve just described, leaving work early, or, or, or what might be described as the, the, the bigger things, they all come down to choices.

[00:09:37] Alasdair: It’s difficult, but actually we often feel victim of systems and circumstances, and of course we don’t deny that it may partly be true, but, um, it is about choice. Now, similarly, as with the sugar, there is a connection there because we have got into patterns of behavior and we allow something to happen in an environment around us. And it’s trying to be conscious or mindful, if you like, of what’s happening when we stay late and think, oh, I’ve done it again, and we can drift into, but actually what is the moment that happens?

[00:10:18] Alasdair: So I will break down. A, a, a conversation has happened yesterday where a manager had half an hour of her own time and allowed another colleague to come in and take that time. And she worked out that she had allowed it. That was gently, but firmly being really clear that it wasn’t that I just didn’t know what to do. And she needed time, actually, that, because once people give up this sense of autonomy or agency, we are a victim of circumstances.

[00:10:48] Alasdair: And it may in part be true because the environment may be quite a, a hostile one or um, uh, such a frenzied one. There may be all sorts of factors that do play into it. But um, yes, this can absolutely work. In fact, it’s, it’s, I would say in some ways it is slightly, I wouldn’t say easier because I think there is, what we try to recognize what you’ve described, Rachel, is a dependence. We can become dependent on how we always do things. It’s what we know.

[00:11:21] Alasdair: And this is what I try to break down the, ’cause there’s often a lot of stigma, uh, around people who, uh, struggle with dependencies, and as we know with addiction. But actually the reality is this is all of us. All of us. And what we’re trying to do is withhold judgment from ourselves or others. Let’s work with this if we, if we want to.

[00:11:41] Rachel: I think this leaving work on time thing. Is really, is really, really important because when I do our training, that’s where we get the pushback on the, when we talk about the zone of power, like what’s in your control and what’s not in your control, as soon as someone says, what time I leave work is out of my control, that gets challenged. They, people really don’t like that because they feel they have no autonomy about when, when they leave work. I have to stay, you know what, because if I don’t, what might happen, I might, you know.

[00:12:11] Rachel: And, uh, we talk about the fact that nobody has to do anything. You don’t have to stay, you know, unless someone’s got a gun to your head, you don’t have to do anything. But it’s then the consequences of, of maybe not seeing that extra patient or or ignoring that colleague who wants your help. That’s what you then have to live with, which is what people feel really, really strongly about.

[00:12:29] Rachel: And maybe this speaks into what you were just saying about this patterns and the routines in the, in this dependence, I was slightly worried about bringing this subject up because in healthcare I know that there are people who are, you know, GPs, routinely staying till 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 at night, and that is a normal day for them.

[00:12:47] Alasdair: Well, what we already hear is, you know that, that fear of judgment. And of course that can, what will others think? Uh, and notice some of the questions that that, that you’re asking. When, uh, if we don’t stay late, what might happen? Great question. And notice as well that it’s, uh, what goes on in your head afterwards that you, you, the expression you used was, we live with that. And that’s the, as much the work that we have to do. It’s not, of course, just the physical finishing things off. It’s the dealing with this, this kind of haunting fear of what if.

[00:13:23] Alasdair: So where would you like to begin? Is this, is this something that is, uh, relevant for yourself as, as well, Rachel?

[00:13:29] Rachel: So I’ve been trying to take my own medicine and, and put some boundaries around my work time, because I want to be available for my family. I want to have made a, made a meal. Uh, eating healthily is really important to me. And so I want to cook a healthy meal. And I say I want it, well, ideally finished by 6, but even 6:30,

[00:13:48] Rachel: I always say to myself, I’m gonna stop at 6:30 no matter what I’ve left undone. But often I get to 20 past 6, 25, I’m, I’m into something. There’s a few more things I just haven’t got to, and I’m like, oh, and I just, I just push it for five more minutes.

[00:14:02] Rachel: And then before I note, it’s 10 past seven and I haven’t even, everyone’s home and I haven’t even started. Um, and then I feel like such a feeling. I’m like, oh gosh, I just needed, that half an hour extra I’ve done, it doesn’t really matter. And I could have stopped. I’m like, okay, tomorrow it will be better. And it, it never is.

[00:14:20] Alasdair: Yes. No, we’re hearing that that’s, uh, comes across really powerfully, just the, uh, sheer amount that is going on. And uh, uh, I think that’s recognizing that potentially it is infinite. And into that you’ve three times said you want something. And in interesting, I noticed that it gets to 20 past six. Oh, and then something happens. You just, it, it just almost, it slips in. You said you just do something and then it’s five past seven.

[00:14:49] Alasdair: So what we hear is something very different in that time between the, I want, and you’re very clear about the importance of eating healthily, seeing your family and, and so many things. And yet in the moment something else happens. How does it sound to you when you say that 20 par it gets to 20 past six?

[00:15:12] Rachel: Well that’s quite passive, isn’t it? It’s like, oh, it’s just, I’ve just noticed that it’s, it’s 20 past six. And I think I’ll be noticing the time that’ll be getting, you know, it’d be half past five, I think. Great, I’ve got about half an hour left and I. I’ll speed up and I’ll try and get more stuff done. And it’s oh six, I’ll flip, I’ve not quite finished it, but I could just, uh, ‘ cause I want, you know, ideally by 10, past quarter, past six, you need to be starting to review next day’s tasks and shut, you know, have a bit a shutdown down. Cal Newport talks about his sort of shutdown routine, which is very helpful, but I’m like, oh, but I haven’t done that.

[00:15:42] Rachel: And that’s when I start panicking of there’s this I haven’t done and I just need to get this done. ’cause I’ve been really in, into some deep work and doing some other stuff. And I guess there is that thing about, there’s no calls or anything past five o’clock, so that time afterwards is, is you mop up and sort everything out time. So I guess it’s a slight feeling of panic at, at 20 past six perhaps.

[00:16:03] Alasdair: There’s a slight feeling of panic. And you said the, the, the, you talked about an ideal for when you would have a sort of wind down time, what is that ideal?

[00:16:12] Rachel: Well, I think ideally if it’s six o’clock I stopped and I reviewed the stuff I needed to do the next day. And, ’cause I, I, I really love doing my full focus plan away, you know, three priorities, check what I’ve gotta do next day. And invariably when I do that, I find something that I’ve forgotten to do that is really urgent like download the slides that I need for the eight o’clock session the next morning and then I spend the time doing that and suddenly, you know, it’s an hour, another hour has gone past.

[00:16:39] Alasdair: Okay. So, we are hearing about a, a more realistic time, like six o’clock or whenever works for you and you find something that has to be done. But that sounds, that, that happens from time to time that would not always be the case. Is that right?

[00:16:55] Rachel: It’s probably the case at least 50, 60% of the time. Because I’ve been focusing on, on, on, on, on something else. Like yesterday, we, I was developing a pod course. I was having to record lots of stuff. Things have taken a lot longer than I thought they were gonna take. So that slipped into the admin time, the email time, the replying to customers and clients and things like that. So those become urgent.

[00:17:17] Alasdair: And if we go back to this, that there’s, there is no end to this. There is, it is. Um, there’s always going to be something, but notice it slips in, it just gets to that. That is, that is the, what we are trying to do is be aware, bring to the realm of consciousness, things that are just happening. And what is a realistic time that you would need that would allow you to, um, give yourself that space to have a, a stop?

[00:17:47] Rachel: Oh, that’s inter, that’s very interesting. ’cause actually, realistically, I think if I start doing my shut down routine about six quarter by six, that gives me enough time. But then I, it isn’t, so realistically, if I started, if I’d reviewed my emails and started it at half five, so like what’s the really urgent thing? You know, is there anything that that is absolutely time critical for tomorrow, then that would give me a much better buffer time.

[00:18:13] Alasdair: What’s coming across in the energy of this conversation. Rachel, if, uh, is you’re describing something that you, you, you would want and that is to, um, eat healthy, see your family. And, and I’m also picking up a real energy in what you’re doing that I’m guessing, I don’t know, but I’m guessing you really enjoy it.

[00:18:32] Alasdair: So I I, I, I’m actually hearing something that’s kind of almost ac academic in your head about this is what you should do and actually I’m wondering about what heart’s desire is.

[00:18:43] Rachel: Yeah, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here, because actually when I really think about it, you know, I, I really enjoy what I do and, and often my days are so crammed with, with meetings and obligations that it, I haven’t had the time, and I do try and put this into my diary, but often to get to the stuff that I, I, I really enjoy. And I really enjoy my work and there’s stuff that I, I just start to get into and I really enjoy doing.

[00:19:08] Rachel: And ’cause you don’t have, you know, after work between 5 and 6:30 and I think, you know, people at their practices, once the patients have gone, that’s when you can get into doing some of the stuff, which is quite, you know, yes there’s all the paperwork, but there’s other stuff that’s quite rewarding and, because you haven’t got those interruptions, that’s sort of your time to get on with it.

[00:19:25] Rachel: But then suddenly you’ve got the family stuff that you also want to do. And the phrase, you know, I’ve been reading some books around the second half of life and workaholism and all this sort of stuff. So part of me is thinking, you know, there’s, I guess there’s a part of slight shame thing going on for me that am I a workaholic? ‘Cause I, I, I would quite happily keep working and working ’cause I enjoy it and I’m engaged and it’s when I can create. But I don’t, the other bit of me doesn’t want to, I want to have time for my family. I enjoy being with my, with my family, but it’s this, it’s this tussle.. And I do feel like I’m being pulled away from my work sometimes

[00:20:03] Alasdair: No thank you, uh, Rachel for that honesty. That is, I think you speak for all of us. Where there is real of, there is real conflict. And that’s okay. And we notice again, what your colleagues often said, what will other people think? And often it’s about an expectation that is around us that’s often, um, unspoken, but there.

[00:20:22] Alasdair: And it’s once we can be honest with ourselves and those around us to work out, okay, what, what do we do with this? Here we see what this is and what do, what do I really want? And it may be having some deals, uh, with yourself that allows you to be able to indulge that which you love. Uh, and, and we’re not saying you don’t love your family. It, it’s just that there’s a, there’s, there’s a, there’s a push pull. And to be able to find a way that is, is right for you, um, rather than something that is. Perhaps conforms to what would be an expectation, whether it’s a 6:30 every day or whatever it is. So where does this take you? What’s, what’s going on in your head now, Rachel?

[00:21:04] Rachel: What’s going on in my head is, you know, it is like, do I really want to stop work at 6:30 because. But I do, I do want to, because I do not want work to be my entire life. And I know that my other colleagues listening to the podcast, but also said that they do not want work to take up their whole life because the busy life is the empty life.

[00:21:22] Rachel: And it, it comes at a cost, it comes at a cost of family and friends and hobbies and, and just having that, that other world and doing other stuff that you enjoy.

[00:21:32] Rachel: And it is, it is interesting because when you’re working like that feels like your whole world. And then when you’re off playing tennis from the garden, work doesn’t matter so much anymore. It’s just, it’s just this sort of head, head mindset shift, isn’t it?

[00:21:44] Rachel: And can I just sort of stop here and go a little bit meta now? Is this really the heart of behavior change? You’ve got to really work out what the, what the underlying deep reasons are, rather than just sort of scooting along the surface and being very transactional about it?

[00:21:58] Alasdair: Well, we, we can do. That’s what, um, if when we listen carefully, we will hear. So I’m hearing this tussle earlier on. I actually thought, oh, this is, what’s going on here? Now, my job is just to be curious and to be kind. It’s, it’s, it’s not, um, doing anything that’s probing or it’s inappropriate, but I will go further.

[00:22:19] Alasdair: But for example, we can keep it much lighter and we could do incremental change where you, set boundaries when you need to set a boundary, to get to your ideals, you give yourself certain amount of time and you, um, instead of leaving at seven, you leave at quarter, at seven. You know, we can do it at that way.

[00:22:37] Alasdair: And that very often I find there’s something else going on. And if we can help people to get to the heart of what this is about, they can go away and explore it for themselves if they’re serious and have conversations with others around them, and then get support. Because often we feel quite alone in it. And actually there’s people around us who can support us with that.

[00:23:00] Alasdair: So in answer to your question, it it, it’s kind of both. And I can take it to quite a practical, more light level when, uh, often, um, GPs and nurse health PR practitioners will have to do that. And there’s times, you know, where I’ve had a, a GP, when I went to my GP, ’cause I was just feeling very, very tired all the time. And he, what he did was he just pushed his computer away and he said, describe your week. And I just said a few things, what was going on his head. And he said, how does that sound to you? I said, well, it’s, it’s a bit crazy.

[00:23:29] Alasdair: And, and what he did was he listened for a minute and a half. And he asked me a question, and it was transforming, Rachel. And I, I, I still remember it this moment. And, and something about him pushing, that he just pushed away and just turned and gave me for a moment, undivided attention, it was brilliant, but it got to something that was, I was, I’d become victim of my circumstances. I just said, oh, it’s, I’ve got to do this and I’ve got to, and basically said, get real and make some choices. If that’s what you want. That’s, this is where you’re heading.

[00:23:58] Rachel: And I, I love that question he asked you. How does that sound to you? Because I think I, I might have said in that situation, gosh, that sounds really busy to me. That sounds really difficult. And probably at that point, your defenses would’ve come up and gone, no, well, it’s just what I do, blah, blah, blah. But the fact you put it in your court, how does that sound to you? That that was the key, wasn’t it? ‘Cause then you went, ah,

[00:24:21] Alasdair: Exactly, exactly. So it’s, it’s, it, it can be done at both hand in in answer to that, uh, question. And these are, uh, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve spotted something really important that we’re trying to share responsibility. Um, not that they’ve, the, uh, practitioner has to be this expert all the time. Just help them facilitate a conversation whether you hear themselves and have some sort of agency in this too, with support. It’s not an alone thing, but to try to find a way through.

[00:24:50] Rachel: If I go back to, to my situation, it, it’s striking me that there needs to be a good enough reward for the behavior change for it to, for it to happen, doesn’t there? Because if you, you’re changing your behavior for some sort of lofty idea of something in the future, and you are not getting any immediate reward or, or feedback, then there’s just no impetus to change. You know, you really either need like a burning platform, like, you know. you, you’re gonna die next week unless you do, unless you do this. Or you know, you can literally see yourself burning out in front of your eyes.

[00:25:20] Rachel: But when it’s just very insidious and that you don’t get that immediate thing, the reward does need to be more than the impetus to keep doing it. So how, how do you, how do you up the stakes in that? I mean, you could do it live with me if you, if you want to now, but I’m, I’m presuming that’s part of it. Is that part of it that you do now or would you sort of wait a bit to do that?

[00:25:39] Alasdair: Well, we, we can do it now. I mean, you described when you do manage to get away early and you get playing tennis or you’re doing something actually in that, when you’re there, what I heard was everything was fine. You know, it, it, it, it didn’t matter that certain things wouldn’t get done. That’s, that’s what I heard. So what I want to see is in, in terms of reward, what is it like for you, Rachel, honestly, when you do manage to get away on time?

[00:26:06] Rachel: What’s interesting, Alasdair, ’cause you were talking about, you know, so I used to have a tennis, a tennis course at six o’clock. So I would, I had to stop at court past five to get ready and to go. And I did that every single week. And you, you, you talk to GPs, and if they’ve got a, a child to pick up, they will get away. If they’ve got, you know, if you’ve gotta go to parents’ evening, they will get away nine times outta 10.

[00:26:28] Rachel: So we can do it when we have that impetus and that thing that we’ve got to go to, the thing I struggled with is it’s the self, it’s the boundaries with self when there isn’t that, you know, that time limited, that time bound thing. I guess the reward is perhaps less and not so immediate when it’s, you know, just a, just an evening in, you know, routine with, with, with the family, everyone’s come home, everyone’s a bit knackered

[00:26:53] Alasdair: Yes.

[00:26:53] Rachel: and perhaps a bit moy, um, and tired and, you know, maybe not a, not all around or, or, or whatever. It’s, yes, it’s, it’s a different sort of reward.

[00:27:03] Alasdair: Yes. Well, the, what we’re hearing is the, this is the Rachel who feels she ought to be there, and that’s fine. But you know, because you are, uh, committed to other people around you, um, that is, as you rightly described of colleagues. When they’ve got to do something for others, then they commit. And this is what the people are so often driven by obligation and feeling, I ought to do this.

[00:27:28] Alasdair: Now what I’m hearing there is actually, again, there’s a very different thing at play. So the joy you get in your work is sometimes winning over the humdrum expectation and duty that on a sometimes day to day is not going to, uh, give you that reward.

[00:27:50] Rachel: I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Alasdair. I think that is genuinely what happens quite a lot. ‘Cause you’re getting a lot of the dopamine from the drive, from getting things done and getting things achieved. But there is a, a, a reward to, you know, when I, when I am present, when I’ve got the time and space and I’m cooking and people come in and we have, you know, cups of tea, I really enjoy those times as well. So when I’m getting the quality time with the family and just there for them, then that is, that feels really good as well. and I really, I really enjoy that as well. But I can’t guarantee that that’s gonna happen, I guess.

[00:28:21] Alasdair: No. Absolutely. And, and all of this is okay. What we’re now just being is being really honest about where things are at, recognizing that the real conflict is one, whereby there is, this is thankfully and happily about fullness of life and, uh, the, the choices that we make within that. And actually how, how you, how you find an accommodation that is right for you and doesn’t become a circular conversation of keeping on thinking I ought to, I should I, right? If you want, if you’re serious about it. Time for some planning.

[00:28:54] Rachel: Okay, so what do I do?

[00:28:56] Alasdair: Great question. You’ve. You’ve begun a lot of the, an you, you’ve actually come up, if you think through what you’ve talked about, you, you’ve begun your, your plan. What do you think in terms of timings, what’s realistic? How many days? Just, just you, you tell me.

[00:29:14] Rachel: So I’ve already said that I need to start the shutdown sequence earlier, haven’t I? Said at half five? ’cause then, then I, I notice the urgent stuff that I really do need to do. I noticed that earlier. There’s that sometimes I get a bit time blind lost in time. So there’s things, something about just even putting alarm on my phone to, to help me do that.

[00:29:30] Rachel: Sometimes having, having that, that deadline. Sometimes external deadlines do, do help. And I’ve been doing quite a lot of exercise first thing in the morning, but actually maybe working first thing in the morning and shifting exercise till later means you stop, then you finish your exercise, then, then you, then you go home or whatever. But that hasn’t really worked for me very well, particularly if it’s like self-motivated exercise. ‘Cause I’ll just carry on working through it. It’s much better if I’m in a group or something. ’cause that forces me to go. Um,

[00:29:56] Rachel: I, I think knowing what the reward is, actually knowing what the rest of the family are doing, so there’s a set up knowing when they’re gonna be home and when things need to be, when they’re gonna be around, so that I can then plot in that, that quality conversation. And I think it’s probably focusing on the quality time that I’m gonna have with them, rather than the, I’ve gotta cook a meal and, you know, the, the, the chores that need doing.

[00:30:19] Rachel: Or maybe even putting in something that’s really nice for me, like going to water my garden or seeds or something that feels a bit more relaxing and, and, you know, we talk about in our, some of our training about the, the, the zone, the transition zone between work and home. And if you are working at home, you’ve got to sort of create that somehow haven’t used, even walking around the block or, or something that I could do to, to actually delineate, no work has stopped, we’re doing this, but it, there needs to be a reward for stopping.

[00:30:49] Alasdair: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s really clear. So we’ve got, uh, half past five, and you find some way in which you, uh, actually, uh, have an alarm there. And that tells you, uh, that you’re beginning that. We’ve also heard that sometimes having an accountability to a group if you’re doing exercise, if it’s just for yourself, that doesn’t work so well.

[00:31:08] Alasdair: Then thinking about your, uh, family, it’s about being able to be sure there will be some quality time and however many times a week, let’s be realistic about that. But we’ve also, and we could hear the energy in your voice, of course, chores, and that’s going to be part of it, and that’s okay.

[00:31:24] Alasdair: Uh, then with, so within all of this mix, we find something that improves the situation. We may not get to the equivalent of no more sugar, that polarity, but we can improve and it’s down to you with others with support.

[00:31:41] Rachel: So, so where do you leave people with then? Is that typically where you’d finish things in a, in a motivational interview and conversation? Are there any, is there anything else that you might add in there?

[00:31:52] Alasdair: well, towards the, it, it depends what we’re doing. I mean, in this one, I’m, pushing you perhaps a bit, being a bit firmer perhaps, if you like, because you know, that is where I feel like I can do. Partly we, we know each other and I know something of what I want to, to, to demonstrate. But what I’m, I would try to do is make somebody feel okay about what the next day is going to be. So I might then just say, Rachel, from our conversation. What, what’s, what’s going to be different?

[00:32:20] Rachel: And so I know that when I’ve done some training with you before, you’ve also mentioned setbacks and what we do with that. Because what, what happens when this evening, I just get, I, I’ve got all these good intentions and maybe I manage it tonight and tomorrow, but then the next day I just completely forget and it’s 10 past seven again, I think, oh, I’ve screwed it up. I’m never gonna, I’m never gonna manage this. Is that something that just completely derails people then?

[00:32:45] Alasdair: It, it it can do, because again, a word we’ve talked about a lot is, you recognizing what we’d like to do, ought to do, should do, and expectation, all of that. And in the cycle of behavior change that we use in motivational interviewing, there’s a, a stage, between maintenance of the new behavior, which is leaving work, at or near to 6:30 every evening, and, uh, finding a reward that would, uh, work for you and so forth. So that’s the new behaviors.

[00:33:12] Alasdair: And what can happen is we can over time relapse to, uh, the, the default setting, which is the old established patterns of, um, just carrying on, uh, and, and working till eight. But actually there is another stage, and that’s called laps, and it’s a blip or a setback. And what we try to recognize is that the reality of life means there will be setbacks from which we can learn.

[00:33:39] Alasdair: So if we just try to withhold judgment about ourselves to say, this is what happens, okay, what’s, what, what went on there? And explore that. We can actually discover something, create our own wisdom or, build on our life. Knowledge and wisdom through these experiences because we all have setbacks.

[00:33:59] Alasdair: So yes, that’s a lapse is, uh, a natural part of, I mean, who among us don’t have setbacks and lapses? It’s just the reality. But sadly, people can feel, oh, I’m back to square one, it was all going so well. I’ve just, and this is why, this phenomenon of people joining a gym, and they do really well for four weeks and then, you know, it, it, it get, gets challenging and then they say, oh, and I’ve stopped going. And actually they, they, they hadn’t really, they, they just had a, a temporary thing and it’s just hard to get back on. But actually it’s, it’s, reality.

[00:34:26] Rachel: I, I love that idea of a lapse versus a relapse. So, you know, actually I, I had a relapse. I’ve gone back to default actually, no, I’ve just had a, a quick lapse. And you know what, I, I’ve been trying to play a lot more tennis recently and it’s very frustrating game, can I just say? But every time I do a bad shot, I’m really trying to get myself into, rather than berating myself for the shot and going right, what can I learn from that shot that I just played? Oh, it’s because I didn’t stop before I hit the ball. It’s because I didn’t bend my legs when I hit it. It’s so next time I will do this. And that’s, really, really helped me.

[00:34:56] Rachel: And if that, I love that. If you just apply that. So next time I work until 10 past seven and I’m really late for dinner and stuff, I go, okay, what happened there? What happened there in the system that could be, that could be changed, rather than beating myself and going, oh, you know.

[00:35:10] Alasdair: That’s brilliant Rachel. And what comes across here is, you know, your commitment to your work and to others, your commitment to change. It really does come across very strongly. And, and within that, also what you’ve spotted is this importance of self-talk. You know, very often that expression, we berate ourselves.

[00:35:30] Alasdair: A a and that it’s so unhelpful. You miss a short Oh, oh, okay. And just allow it to be neutral and the, the joy of being there in that moment. And then the learning about, as you said, the swing or the legs of what’s going on. That’s then when we can be at ease with ourselves and those around us.

[00:35:48] Alasdair: But there’s so much judgment all too often on ourselves. Oh, I’ve messed up, I’ve screwed, this is just how I am. And then of course, we pile on this, onto ourselves. So I think you’ve spotted something really, really important, Rachel. Thank you.

[00:36:02] Rachel: Well, I think that thing about judgment is so important because I think, you know, when you’re, when you’re a professional, you’ve got a lot of responsibility, there’s judgment, if you, damned if you do, you’re damned if you don’t. So you judge yourself for staying late at work and you judge yourself for not staying late at work. And with all that judgment and shame then, then it becomes really hard, presumably to make any sort of positive behavior change.

[00:36:25] Alasdair: exactly. And what I think you’ve beautifully described that. So once we say, okay, that’s we, as you say, damned if you do, damned if you don’t, there’s judgment all around us. Okay, that’s where we’re at. Let’s get real. So what are we going to do?’ Cause what we’re doing is there, you’re bringing to the realm of consciousness, things that are just around, we’re noticing it. Okay, what should we do? Uh, I do tend to push people a little bit and, uh, I hope you’ve been okay with that.

[00:36:47] Rachel: it is been one of our said. ‘Cause one of the things I’ve noticed with you is you are incredibly well there. There’s a few skills that I’ve noticed for you. You’re incredibly supportive. So I don’t actually feel pushed at all. I feel like you are 100% on my side and you’ve been really kind and really, I feel just a lot of support from you.

[00:37:04] Rachel: But the other thing I’ve noticed is you’ve been. Listening and noticing really, really hard. Like you’ve noticed thing that I knew you were going on for me, but I hadn’t told you and but you just like picked up on that. So there’s the noticing, there’s a non-judgmentalness, if that’s a word, or the non-judgment, which is really helpful. ‘Cause the minute there’s any judgment, one just gets defensive, don’t you?

[00:37:26] Rachel: But I’m sure there’s other skills that you’ve been using that I haven’t mentioned. So if you want to get someone to, if you want to help someone to change their behavior, what other skills have you been using? I mean, you are so unconsciously competent at this, you probably don’t even notice you are using them. But if you were to be training someone to do this, what would you be sort of

[00:37:46] Alasdair: Yes. You, you’re, you’re absolutely right. There are, I mean, the, the main thing is listening and, uh, simple reflections go a long way, uh, just to help somebody hear themselves.

[00:37:56] Alasdair: But there will be other techniques, for example, where there’s a power imbalance. And a doctor or whoever, whoever the, the, the medical practitioner is they, they will sometimes, um, express more puzzlement, but something than they would ordinarily because they’re, they’re trying to convey that they’re struggling to understand something to help the person feel more at ease to talk.

[00:38:19] Alasdair: So it, these used to be called the Columbo style after a a 1970s detective series Columbo where he, he, he just did the, uh, a refreshing way of working rather than it be that typical adversarial power, imbalanced way of working. So there’s that style. We can do things called, I mean, we’re getting into now technique, and I want to say that technique is secondary. Um, because firstly is, is about the quality of listening.

[00:38:44] Alasdair: But, um, often if we want people to be honest about how much they drink, uh, you know, I, I, I, I might, if I’m chatting with a colleague, say what I mean, what we’re talking here? And, and I will overstate. So we’re taking a guess. And so that in that moment, instead of it’s not a couple of bottles wine, oh no, of course not, it’s half a bottle. But in that moment, they feel better about telling us the truth. And this is because of judgment.

[00:39:07] Alasdair: So we help people feel comfortable about being honest with ourselves because as you heard in our conversation, if we’re not being honest, we just get nowhere.

[00:39:15] Alasdair: So there are many, many techniques, but I, I, I want to emphasize, uh, Rachel, of course, we could never sort of, uh, uh, I’m, I’m not, I’m not saying it’s a science or it’s anything other than really being generous in listening. That’s the main thing that takes us three quarters of the distance. The technique is secondary.

[00:39:32] Rachel: Listening and noticing. I love the Colombo thing. I still remember him with this cigar going, Hmm, I’m just curious. Tell me, tell me more. And then, then people really, really get to it.

[00:39:41] Alasdair: the, the suspect thinks they’re dealing with the fool and they just feel at ease and they talk more. But he’s, he’s, he actually, he’s a very clever script, but he’s, he’s, listen, Louis Thru does this, there’s many very skillful journalists who manage to help people feel more at ease and talk more, and, and it’s a, rather than just be too competitive or too clever, actually, that’s partly the problem.

[00:40:03] Rachel: Not everybody is gonna have access to a, an amazing coach like you. Is there some of these techniques that one could use on oneself, and if so, how? How would we do that?

[00:40:14] Alasdair: ‘ Um, I think being able to work out the difference between what we ought to do and what we really want to do is the, is where I would begin with that. Rachel. I, I, I would, I would want that people can find somebody to talk with, wherever.

[00:40:34] Alasdair: I mean, the, the, the work I do is in an arena where we’re working with vulnerable families and, and that’s not my word, that’s ’cause I think we’re all vulnerable in some ways, but we’re, there are issues around dependence and mental health issues and domestic abuse. And there’s very often, it’s a struggle to find resource, but it is there. And it is, they’re often in the most simple things within community. And, uh, we want someone who is,, you know, where they can find somewhere of where there’s loving kindness and it’s there in the community, just if we can be willing to be honest and just talk a little bit.

[00:41:07] Alasdair: Do not be alone in this. There, there are many injustices that hold people in behaviors that they wouldn’t necessarily have chosen way back, but we want that people do not feel alone. So reach out, find, uh, forgive me, that sounds a cliche, but just find some, someone to talk with is what I would, I would say.

[00:41:29] Rachel: Actually, that is such brilliant advice because when I think about, yeah, when, when I’ve changed behavior, it’s always after a conversation with someone, it’s like, I’ll talk to my best mate and I’ll talk something through, and then I’ll come up with something gonna do. Been really helpful. The conversation we’ve had here quite hard to, it is hard to do on your own.

[00:41:46] Rachel: So if we can just listen, listen to each other, listen to each other with, with curiosity and non-judgment and, and maybe those magic questions of, well, you know, what does that sound like to you? Or, well, what would you advise someone else to do? Yeah, so that, so they can start to solve the problem.

[00:42:01] Alasdair: It’s a great observation. Yes, it is often said culture, whether it’s family culture, our own culture, organizational culture, it changes conversation by conversation. We are creatures of, you know, generally we, we, we need each other.

[00:42:12] Rachel: So Alasdair, um, I know that you do training all over the country for this. You really love to work in the preventative space, uh, both in health and, and social care. And if, if wanna see if, if anyone could ever attend one analysis, training is absolutely fantastic. I’ve, I’ve been to some myself. So how, how can people get hold of you if they, if they want to know more?

[00:42:31] Alasdair: Um, well it’s through our, our website, which is cambridgetraining.org. I’m also on, uh, LinkedIn, just in my, my, my name, and have a Twitter handle, again, just the, the sorry, X handle, whatever it is. Uh, just on, on, uh, my name alasdaircant .

[00:42:49] Alasdair: So, it’s the area that, um, I, I do want to, help people find a way for themselves to, uh, change where they wish to. And it’s about preventing rather than, uh, reacting. So trying to respond earlier. And it is possible. So yes, you’re right. That’s the arena that I, I, I let you just so enjoy and love doing what, because you care about, uh, people who deserve better, actually. They deserve better conversations.

[00:43:15] Rachel: So for three top tips for having those better conversations?

[00:43:18] Alasdair: Uh, work out what you want. So let go of what you ought to do and then go to what you ought to do. But firstly, be real about what you want. Then go to obligation, because if it’s obligation first, it rarely works.

[00:43:37] Alasdair: I would say break it down into small steps. Whatever it is, if you’re trying to get away from work at at half past six, if you can get away at 25 past six, that’s the result. Or it’s 25 to. Break it down into small doable steps.

[00:43:52] Alasdair: And forgiveness. Forgiveness of ourselves, forgiveness of people around us. If we are kind to ourselves and kind to those around us, and recognize there’s a huge amount of judgment and expectation once we notice it, just let go of that.

[00:44:08] Alasdair: So I would say forgiveness is a big, is really important one when it comes to behavior change.

[00:44:13] Rachel: Alasdair, thank you so much. That’s, that’s a, a great place to end. And there’s so much more I wanna ask you. So will you come back on the podcast again soon so we can talk more about

[00:44:21] Alasdair: Oh, Rachel, I’ve loved this. It’s been wonderful to, to just talk openly a, a about this and, uh, I’d be delighted to. So I wish you all the, uh, all the very best and all your endeavors. Uh, and, uh, and also to, um, all, all your listeners. I wish you, uh, everybody such health and strength and, and, uh, peace as well.

[00:44:43] Rachel: Thanks for listening. Don’t forget, you can get extra bonus episodes and audio courses along with unlimited access to our library of videos and CPD workbooks by joining FrogXtra and FrogXtra Gold, our memberships to help busy professionals like you beat burnout and work happier. Find out more at youarenotafrog.com/members.