Is the Grass Greener on the Other Side of Medicine?

[00:00:00] Rachel: A career in healthcare doesn’t just involve medicine and patient care, but listening, taking the initiative, dealing with difficult personalities and leadership to name just a few things we have to do. So when we notice things could be improved, or we learn that some of our skills might be put to better use elsewhere, the idea of going out on your own, like starting a private coaching practice or creative side hustle can be pretty appealing.

[00:00:22] Rachel: And I’ve talked before about how starting Wild Monday has been transformative for me, but it’s not as if I just stepped out of my GP surgery and started running events and training programs. It took years of making mistakes, learning from them, testing things out, seeing what worked and what didn’t, and I am still learning.

[00:00:39] Rachel: This week, Dr. Jo Watkins is back on the podcast to talk about striking out on your own. Now, neither Jo nor I are here to suggest that anybody should leave medicine or should stay in medicine. Totally up to you. But if you’ve been thinking about what it might look like to have your own business, we’ve got some honest and practical advice to help you make an informed decision.

[00:01:04] Rachel: If you’re in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you’re feeling stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options. I’m Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog

[00:01:21] Jo: I’m JoWatkins and I’m a business mentor and coach for medics and healthcare professionals that want to start up their own businesses, personal brands or side hustles. And I’m also co-founder of an organization called the How People.

[00:01:33] Rachel: So Joey, as well as being a business coach, um, an amazing mentor, et cetera, you are also a GP. So I think it’d be really helpful for people that don’t know about you, just to hear why on earth you’ve ended up as a business coach having started off in, in medicine. ‘Cause you’ve had an interesting journey, haven’t you? via some granola.

[00:01:52] Jo: It is a bit of a long story and journey to this point, but essentially I was a part-time GP partner. Um, I had two children and I was going back to work after my second maternity leave back in 2009.

[00:02:08] Jo: Um, and it was, it was really around that time, about sort of six months later that we went over to Canada where I have got lots of family and we spend a lot of time, and I came home making my cousin’s granola recipe, and I talked about this on the, on the first podcast, but it was a really a, a very accidental journey into business. I didn’t really know anything about business, not branding, marketing, nothing had. Absolutely no clue.

[00:02:34] Jo: I very much created a business that retrospectively was not aligned with my values. I created a monster that involved me being chained to an oven or needing to employ lots of people in a factory unit where I lived, which just didn’t line up with anything I wanted, but I didn’t know what that problem was. I, I hadn’t worked out that there was this disconnect.

[00:02:54] Jo: And then we had a period of travel. And that basically took me into this world of personal development, of growth, of online learning. And that was when the How People was born. We started out as an in-person supportive network for teenage girls. How Standing for happiness opportunities and wellbeing, it was all in person. It was all local. It was like a cool version of Guides. We were about to grow down the M four corridor with our plan to have hubs of, of, of the business growing down the M4 corridor and Covid happened. So the, the old adage of Covid pushing us in a different direction within two weeks we, we’d launched an online community and we had 35 teenage girls coming every Thursday onto Zoom to be supported and be inspired by speakers coming in. And we did all sorts of things. It was amazing.

[00:03:44] Jo: The learning was immense. I, you know, learned everything you could possibly learn from anyone around me about how to grow an online business. And we did that for the whole of Covid as a, as a membership. I’ve kind of learned on the hoof really. There’s no MBA, there’s no marketing degree, but I have kind of been there and done that and worn the T-shirt. And I think that’s what made people start coming to me for support.

[00:04:11] Jo: So over the last two years, through various mean one-to-ones, group programs, different offers, I’ve helped about 50 medics, predominantly GPs to be able to start their own thing.

[00:04:24] Rachel: The You Are Not a Frog analogy is all about being a frog in the, in a pan of boiling water. You know that the fact that the workload is built up, it wasn’t like that when we, when we first started. When I was a registrar, I used to go for a swim in my lunch break when I was a GP registrar. Now I tell that to gps now, they fall off their chair, I go, you know, that would never, ever happen. The workload has got really hard.

[00:04:42] Rachel: So when you feel like you’re in a pan and, and the, it’s just too hot, there’s a few different things you can do. You can either modify the pan you’re in, try and turn down the heat some way, shape or form, whether that’s working less, having difficult conversations, changing the culture, you know, et cetera. You can do that, you can stay in your same workplace, but make it better for yourself.

[00:05:03] Rachel: Or you can, you can jump into a different pan. You can go to one that’s, you know, it’s still a pan, so you’re still in the NHS, you’re still in the medical world, but you might be in a different practice or you might be like you did, you worked in a minor injuries unit, you were still doing the same sort of thing, but actually for that point in your life, that suited you much better. So you can go to different pan but do pretty much the same thing.

[00:05:23] Rachel: Or you can jump out of the pan totally and go into a completely different environment. That that might be a lake or a mountain stream, and it seems really exciting and fun. But what you said to me earlier is the lake is, is really cold. It’s not hot at all. It’s really cold and often you’ve got no work and you have to build that up yourself.

[00:05:42] Rachel: So those are your, your three options. And I think all of them have their challenges. And what we wanted to do was sort of debunk a few of the myths, um, that, that the lake was an easier option than, than actually staying in, ’cause I don’t think it is. I think it’s different and there are things that you need to consider.

[00:05:58] Jo: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think before we get into. Lakes and streams and boiling water, I want to also say that I am not encouraging anybody to leave the NHS or leave their medical careers. Um, and it’s something that people say, oh, you, you know, are you part of this exodus of people, you know, helping people start their businesses? And I, you know, I am absolutely not.

[00:06:22] Jo: But we, we owe it to ourselves as individuals to question what we’re doing sometimes. And if life is really miserable. And if you’ve got yourself into a situation where you are really unhappy in what you’re doing, then, then having these conversations and, and hearing about the possibilities, I think is really important.

[00:06:39] Jo: What I’m seeing in a lot of people that I work with, I, I absolutely encourage people to modify their work, to be able to bring on board a new project if that’s what they want. And generally what I’m seeing is that suddenly life takes a different, you know, a different tack, and actually they start enjoying the job that they’ve hated for the last five years. Is there an improvement to your medical life that that enables you to have less pressure, less paperwork, you know, you know, is that, is that a possibility? And I think that’s the turning down the heat aspect.

[00:07:16] Jo: So if you are in that pot and you’re feeling all of these things, talk to somebody that you know, is there a way that you can reduce your workload? Is there a way you can manage your diary better? Questioning it. If you’ve had children, you started your consultant job, you’ve gone on to have a couple of kids, it doesn’t need to stay the same. Like, why do we not feel that we can do that? Have difficult conversations.

[00:07:37] Jo: And you are starting again. And that’s okay. And that’s, well, it’s not okay. It’s amazing. But you can’t come from a place of feeling, you know, can’t really come into that from any sort of burnout. I think you’ve gotta be. Ready to take on those challenges. You need to have had the coaching or the therapy or whatever you need that that maybe has been missing to get you to a point where you can actually say, right, I’m ready to do this. It might not earn me lots of money, but it’s a passion project, or it’s something I really want to do.

[00:08:07] Jo: And I, and I say to people, I use the kind of 80-year-old deathbed analogy because I think that’s the only one really, like actually, if you get to be 80-year-old, 80 years old, and you’re looking back on your life, would you regret not doing this? And I ask myself, I’ve asked myself that every single time I’ve jumped into a different freezing cold lake, I’ve said, will I regret not giving this a go? And if the answer to that is yes, then you’ve gotta give it a go.

[00:08:31] Rachel: What do you wish you’d known before you gave it a go? Because I’m just looking at what are the benefits of being free Because you said, you know, I, wanted to have my own freedom, but I found actually now I do this organization, I’m probably less free, or it feels like you’re free. But when you employ people, when you have responsibility, you’ve gotta keep the cash coming in.

[00:08:51] Rachel: And I earned more as a salaried GP. I had more job security. I got less nasty feedback. Well, no, not, I don’t get nasty feedback now, but, you know, people can write some horrible stuff online and it feels a lot more personal, because you’ve created something yourself rather than you’re sort of delivering a service. So what, what have you learned? What fallacies were there? What did you believe that you wish someone had put you right?

[00:09:14] Jo: I think what I’ve learned in the latter years, the last two years is that family and your life has to come first and your business needs to be built around it. And you know, the irony is, if my husband could hear me say that now, he’d be saying, you know, I’ve been saying that for years, and he has been saying that for years.

[00:09:32] Jo: And I, I did a recent little sort of audit of my time, and at the end of every day, over the last probably couple of months, I’ve managed to sit down and I’ve managed to catch up with the kids, watch Traitors together, you know, you know, watch tv, have dinner. We always used to have dinner, but I would always be distracted after dinner. I’d always be on the phone, on, listening to something, sending emails, like no downtime at all. And when I did sit on the sofa, I fell asleep.

[00:10:00] Jo: I’ve made an active decision to change that. And I think, I wish somebody had said that to me earlier, that actually it doesn’t matter. There’s, there’s never gonna be an end to the emails. There’s never gonna be an end to the learning. There’s always gonna be an offer you can put out there or a conversation you can have, but you have to switch off. And I’m only really learning that now.

[00:10:21] Jo: You know, I look back and I can’t remember the last time I didn’t do that, which is great. So my daughter’s not gonna remember the last time I didn’t do that. But if there is a change that’s required within your work life balance, if you’ve started running something and actually it started running you, I think that’s when you’ve got to stop and say, well, well, why am I, why am I doing this to start with? You know, I’m.

[00:10:40] Jo: Keeping your, the life that you want to have and your family, if you’ve got, if you’ve got children or a partner, keeping that front of mind despite the excitement of the shiny new thing and all of the stuff that you could be doing. And I’m preaching to myself now because that’s really, you know, I found that incredibly hard to do.

[00:10:59] Rachel: I mean, gosh, you’re preaching to me as well because it’s really hard I think Warren Buffet famously said, didn’t he, that a business is defined by the things it says no to, not, not the things you say yes to. And I think as doctors starting businesses, what happens is, well, firstly there’s a little bit of, I need to prove that I can do this. You know, we are used to doing stuff well. So when we do stuff, we want to do it frigging well, and, and we can do it well. And the problem is you can do anything, but you can’t do everything.

[00:11:26] Rachel: But I do think it is a mistake if we always think that, think that thing has to be outside of medicine, because it can be even even harder than, than what you’ve got now. So it’s a question of don’t throw the baby out with the bath water unless you’re really, really sure.

[00:11:40] Jo: Absolutely. And, and a friend of mine who, um, is married to a medic, he’s a, he’s a business guy, they live out in New Zealand. He, he always says to me, I’m just flabbergasted that you guys work, you know, you work in this very linear fashion. Often you’ve made these decisions at 14, 15, this is what you wanna do. Then you get to this place when you are 30, 31, you become a consultant, you become a GP, and then that’s it for the rest of your working life.

[00:12:04] Jo: Whereas in business, you generally move position every, every four to five years once you reach that senior place, and you do have that, you do have that. That change and that excitement and that and that growth.

[00:12:16] Jo: I do think that we get, um, we can get very stale and I, like you say, it can be within, within the medical confines, but this, this part of us, a lot of medics are very creative and a lot of medics have had that squashed right outta them. The amount of people that have done art GCSE, grade 8 this, you know, and, and I think we’re not very good at allowing ourselves to bring that creativity outside of a job. So we feel we, you know, we, I think we still aren’t very good with that self care piece that means actually, do you know what? I’m gonna go to pottery classes on a Thursday.

[00:12:48] Jo: I think people tend not to do that, it’s just still around life and family and kids. You know, taking the kids to all of their classes and everything that needs to happen. Your own needs get a little bit quashed and sometimes that creative, those creative juices need to come out. And if you can’t do that within your NHS confines, you see the next thing, you go to the next course, you see the next people doing all these amazing things and you think, oh, that’s it. You know, I’ll go and do that, because that’s bringing my creativity to life, which is why most business owners get lost in Canva for like, you know, hours on end.

[00:13:20] Rachel: OMG. Note to anyone watching this, if you haven’t yet discovered Canva and you’ve got any ounce of creativity in you, you don’t need to be artistic. You can create anything in that, even slides. I do all my slides in Canva now, not PowerPoints

[00:13:33] Jo: Birthday invitation slides, everything.

[00:13:35] Rachel: Brilliant. Anyway, so yes, I, we can even get down the rabbit hole of talking about Canva.

[00:13:41] Rachel: But it does, it does. When I talk about the zone of genius, and I think the zone of genius is really important for people when they’re thinking about what they wanna do. So the zone of genius is about working within your zone of genius, at doing what you are good at, but also what you enjoy. And often when we do a career change, we go to what we enjoy, not necessarily what we’re good at, or we go to what we’re good at and not what, not necessarily what we enjoy.

[00:14:03] Rachel: Now, there is a quadrant in the zone of genius, which is stuff that you really enjoy but you’re not particularly good at. That needs to be maybe more of a hobby. And I think sometimes the mistake we make is, you know, you think about how unconsciously competent we are at, for example, consulting, um, and, and talking to people. And then we think, oh, well I could just go off and, you know, do flower arranging, that’s just the top of my head. I can be a professional florist, whoever, but not realizing that someone else has had like 20 years of doing that, they’re so unconsciously competent. But because we enjoy it.

[00:14:35] Rachel: Now, I’m not saying don’t, I’m not saying we can’t get trained up and do it, but we don’t realize how competent we are at, at, at the medicine bit, at the talking to people, but, which is probably why a lot of people who do a career change outside of medicine do that sort of thing. So they become a coach or they might go into being a therapist or, or, or teaching or something like that.

[00:14:55] Jo: But when they do those things on their own terms, they become a business owner. And I think whatever your, whatever the business is, whether you are a coach, a therapist, a flower arranger, you know, a tutor, whatever it is, you are in charge of your own diary, your own marketing, whether somebody actually becomes a bum on a seat.

[00:15:15] Jo: Like we’re very, very good as medics, very bright people, generally, avid learners, very good at creating amazing things. You know, it’s all, I always, I sort of liken it to sort of sitting in a darkened room, creating this magical thing, and then just sort of opening the door and expecting everybody to come and find you. And that just doesn’t happen.

[00:15:34] Jo: So actually, irrespective of what you are selling, the issues come around, I’ve got to start being a good writer. I’ve got to write, you know, good content that is persuasive and converts people into understanding what I do. You know, that’s a work in progress for everybody. I’ve gotta show up on social media. I’ve gotta do videos. I mean, people just like run a mile. Um, you know, I’ve got to start engaging with people, talking to strangers.

[00:16:02] Jo: You know, that this, this is the sort of thing that, that is needed, whatever you are selling, if you’re selling a coffee cup or if you’re selling an hour of coaching, those are the things that are required to build a business.

[00:16:13] Rachel: I re remember being on a business course and, and they’re saying that the biggest reason why business fails, it’s not ’cause they don’t have a good product. Because I can guarantee that probably what you, I bet your granola was brilliant, and like, if, if a medic retrains to be a coach or retrains some sort of creating your product’s, probably great.

[00:16:30] Rachel: But what’s happened is you haven’t got route to market. How are you even gonna price it? How are you gonna negotiate? That sort of stuff, we are not used to doing as, as, as doctors. Luckily we have enough patients in, in the uk and you don’t really need to sell yourself in in any way, you’re like saying, no, don’t, don’t come, don’t come. But sales is like, and then, then you need all that confidence, that mindset stuff and oh, I can’t really tell them that that’s, oh, it’s a completely different, kettle of fish.

[00:16:56] Jo: which we need to learn. So I think I, what I see is people frustrated and then I say to them, look, can we go back to the first day that you were a GP registrar or your first day working on the wards? How comfortable were you feeling then? You know, how, how confident were you that you were doing a great job, you know?

[00:17:12] Jo: And the answer is always no. I remember that first day vividly trying to go from 20 patient, 20 minutes to 10 minutes thinking, how on earth am I ever gonna do that? And now we don’t think twice about that.

[00:17:23] Jo: So we are, you know, learning every day and growing every day. And I think with, with the mindset piece around doing something outside of medicine, I think we struggle becoming, becoming beginners again. And actually that’s what we’re doing. We’re we are, we are experts and then we are becoming beginners in whatever it is.

[00:17:40] Jo: But it’s, don’t just invest in the learning of, of the actual skill. Invest in, getting somebody, whether it’s me or anybody else, to help you understand what is required for you to stand on your own two feet.

[00:17:54] Jo: Um, but this, you know, I, I, I know that not everybody in your world is going to be interested in or wanting to run their own business, but there are ways of, of helping people using your expertise without you necessarily being out there doing the thing yourself. So, for example, Caroline and the Joyful Doctor, I was talking to Hexagon Health Limited today, who are a lifestyle medicine company. You can go and work under their umbrella as a clinician. So there are so many different things happening now.

[00:18:23] Jo: And, and I just, I love it when I can say to a patient, look, you, you know, if you want to put you on the NHS waiting list. Absolutely. What are my other choices? Well, here are your free resources from the NHS, these are great websites. But also, why don’t you follow this person on Instagram? Why don’t you have a look at this person’s free masterclass? Why don’t you consider having a one-to-one just to discuss lifestyle measures with this clinician?

[00:18:46] Rachel: You’ve brought up some really helpful stuff there. The first one is almost starting your own business, I would say, like, almost say put that at the bottom of your, at the bottom of the list. Do it if you have to, because you will probably earn more money working as a doctor in your current thing. And you can, you know, add in private or whatever.

[00:19:07] Rachel: But do other stuff because you are interested because it gives you the variety. It it, I think it really diversifying helps with burnout ’cause it helps your brand use different bits of bits of, it gives you a different type of team. But yes, join in with someone who’s already doing it. So we have lots of people who are Shapes trainers who can give our shapes toolkit course. And, and they could go and find their clients and they can deliver it. So that is one way you can do it.

[00:19:30] Rachel: Coaches, you, can go and work with another organization. Although I must say there are a lot of coaches around. And I would say the best reason to train to be a coach right now is to use it in your current job. Use it in your current work, use it with your team, use it in your department to be a coach. It will make you a better leader. It will make, and Tom covers all of this in his course. We’ll, we’ll put links to his, his course down there as well. So it will, it will add to what you are already doing.

[00:19:57] Rachel: ‘Cause it can be quite lonely doing it on your own, doing a business on your own, having to think of all the ideas, set it up, and I’m so lucky now I have a team around me, but at the time I was just trial and error, follow the system, follow whatever system, it’s wonderful to meet you Joey, and people like that.

[00:20:14] Rachel: But if at all possible, I would say stay in your current job and diversify. Do stuff within your work because you’ve got that, that base, that security. But you are then using other skills. And then if you want to go a bit portfolio, that’s great.

[00:20:29] Rachel: I get really annoyed with those things that come on to social media that go, don’t have a plan B, ’cause then you’ll never put your heart and soul into plan A. And I always think that is so dangerous because actually your business will be, or whatever you’re planning to do will be so much better if you are doing it not because you are so desperate for income. ‘Cause then you’ll end up saying yes to anything you possibly can, just to make ends meet. If you’re doing it because you love it, you want to develop something, but you’ve also got this, your regular job over here that if you need to, like, I’m sure with you Joey, like at any point if anything goes pear shaped, you’ve got your GP thing, you can increase your sessions. You know, so you, you’ve got that backup, but suddenly the, the pressure is off.

[00:21:08] Rachel: And I think that’s where we do make bad decisions when we are so desperate for the income and the money that we just, just have to do it. And that becomes very, very, very, very difficult.

[00:21:19] Jo: I think if you, if you are in the world of business, that’s palpable. When you go, when you have a conversation with somebody. You know, I always say to, to the people I work with, you’ve got to lead with service. You are being a value to people, you are being helpful. It’s not a sales call, it’s an interaction with two people that might be able to support and help each other.

[00:21:38] Jo: And if you, if you’re panicked, if you are, if you’re just trying to live hand to mouth and your business is covering every, you know, everything in your household, that is an incredibly stressful situation. So, you know, I’m also a big advocate for, for looking at where we’re spending.

[00:21:53] Jo: Working to live, um, not living to work, working out how much you actually do need. You know, do you really need to be working five days a week? Could you cut down to give yourself some slack or some room or some, you know, breathing space?

[00:22:06] Jo: But I agree, diversification is key here for people that are struggling. And I realize the NHS is is a totally different beast than it was two years ago, three years ago. And the, the hear hearing how much GPs are struggling to find work, I think for those people that are feeling burnout in salaried or partnerships, it must feel very, they must feel very stuck at the moment. You know, it’s be very risky to leave your partnership now without a plan A or B. And I think that might lead to feeling quite, you know, quite an oppressive feeling.

[00:22:41] Jo: But is there any way you can change that? Is there any slight tweaks that you can do or, you know, like you say, get a hobby, do something that you absolutely love. And, and not every business, and I, and I need to remind myself of this as well, that, you know, not everything needs to be monetized or made, made into a thing. You know, I’m terrible at. Like, oh, that’s a good business idea. That’s a good business idea.

[00:23:01] Jo: And the how people, for example, I mean, that was the most incredible learning journey, but I mean, the privilege of helping those girls through a really difficult time and the, the now watching them go off to university, some of them, the older ones have gone off to university, keeping in touch with them, seeing the mentors that we work with, what they’ve gone on to do.

[00:23:24] Jo: You know, we didn’t pay ourselves a wage from that business, but we have had the most incredible relationships. I’m being honored to watch, watch these girls grow up. Um, and I would do that again in a heartbeat because of that.

[00:23:37] Jo: So So if it’s in you and you and you think about it all the time and you think you would regret it, if you didn’t make it come alive, then I think it’s worth giving it a go. But just be mindful that, that anything that you do can take over every aspect of your life, particularly if you are of a certain character that I think we both are, and that’s really tough for people around you.

[00:23:59] Rachel: It can be, but I, I would also challenge that and say, you know, maybe we’re saying that because we’re both women, Joey? And I wonder if, if we were guys, you know, be like, Yeah, you go get entrepreneur, but when you’ve got the mum guilt, but, well, my business has taken me away. I’m, I’m so much more invested in what I do now just because I really, really enjoy it.

[00:24:19] Rachel: And my slight workaholic, if anyone wants to hear about me setting boundaries around my work, we just released a couple of ones with Alistair Can a, a behavior change coach, where we really dive down deep into, you know, how do we set boundaries around our work and what is it that’s stopping me, because I love what I do and much more invested in it than I have ever been.

[00:24:37] Rachel: And I absolutely love it. And so it’s not ’cause I’m going, oh no, I’ve got to do more work. I’m going, I really want to just read that. I wanna do that. I’m doing courses in my spare time, I’m doing online courses in my spare time about how to podcast and how to do this because it’s so interesting. And I think that’s, that’s the thing. Do something that interests you. Don’t ever do something ’cause you think it’s gonna be a money spinner. That is like the quickest way to burn out or really, really hates what you do.

[00:25:03] Jo: Absolutely. And I, and I’m sitting here today and I am in my, my parents’ flat and I came here at nine o’clock this morning and this is probably the longest I’ve had working on my business. I’ve recorded a couple of podcasts, I’ve had a couple of meetings, I’ve done lots of emails and newsletters and lots of stuff, um, and I haven’t done the school run either side now. That’s the first time I’ve ever done that when it hasn’t been going to work as a GP. So yeah, stacks of mum guilt from me, from my direction for sure.

[00:25:33] Jo: And, and, and I love what I do. I could sit here all night, I get completely lost in it. Um, I love nothing more. But I think therefore I, I, I do sometimes or I have historically struggled to, to switch off because I enjoy it so much. And you know, there was one time where somebody asked me what I did for self-care and I said, well, I don’t need to do much because basically like business is self-care for me. I absolutely love it. And she

[00:25:56] Rachel: Uh oh, yeah,

[00:25:59] Jo: But I’ve, I’ve stopped that now, but that was, I think that was the point where I thought actually I really need to, I really need to not think of it quite that way. So yeah, there’s heaps of mum guilt. Heaps of you, like you say, there’s, there’s definitely a different thing about being a, being a female, and I think this drive to want to make it work.

[00:26:14] Jo: I think when you do do stuff outside of the day job that we’ve trained to do and that we’re all quite good at, you’re gonna have your doubters, you’re gonna have your people that are like, well, what, why are you doing this? What are you doing this for? Like, what are you trying to prove? Like, you know, who are you trying to prove this to? And, and who knows what that is, um, what voice that is, but it’s there. And, um, I think a lot of people are striving to, to prove something either to themselves, their previous selves, their future selves, or a chemistry teacher in my, in my experience.

[00:26:45] Rachel: Yeah. And I, I would also say that, you know, if, if you had episodes of burnout when you were a doctor. If you do your own thing, your own business, you’ll probably have episodes of burnout too, because you take yourself with you. You’ll end up working just as hard on the new idea. You’ll still struggle with setting boundaries. You’ll still struggle. The biggest thing I struggle with is giving difficult feedback to people, tell, you know, actually saying what my needs are and when they aren’t met and when things haven’t gone quite right, actually giving that, that difficult feedback, which I always struggled with as a, as a, as a GP, which is probably why some, I’m so obsessed with it.

[00:27:22] Rachel: So that will always still come back to bite you. It’s a slightly different environment, but it, you take yourself with you unfortunately.

[00:27:32] Rachel: I’m just wondering if It would be really helpful to people if we just literally listed all the different things that we have seen doctors go into and do, either as part of a portfolio career or as their own business. ‘Cause I do know that people always say they struggle to know what’s out there. And I think it’s hard because I think a lot of the jobs that people go into or the roles that go into, they’re not advertised.

[00:27:52] Jo: Okay. Well, the three people that I tend to see that coming, that want to start their own businesses tend to be either they’ve done some menopause training of some sort, they’ve done coaching training of some sort, or they’ve done the lifestyle medicine diploma or functional medicine. Those seem to be the four things that people are doing and then wanting to go alone.

[00:28:11] Jo: I would add a caveat to all four of those things. There has to be an interest level for you, but also you need to think about what you’re gonna do with it afterward, okay?

[00:28:19] Jo: And my, my last caveat is if you are gonna become a coach, then find this intersection between your expertise and that coaching. Don’t just go out there and be a generic coach, helping everyone with everything. Where does this fit into your expertise? And be as niche as possible because there are lots of people out there claiming to do this same thing and help the same people.

[00:28:38] Rachel: As, our American colleagues would say, the riches are in the niches.

[00:28:42] Jo: The riches are in the niches, correct.

[00:28:45] Rachel: In fact, I could if, if anyone’s interested in why? Because if you are, say, you know, maybe say you are a gardening expert and you, you’re really good at growing garden, you know, small plants in small gardens, you say meet someone at a party and you go, do you know anyone who wants to learn how to garden? They’d be like, Hmm, not sure you, but if you met someone who said, do you know anyone who’s got a really small garden that’s facing north and they could really do with getting a few flowers to make it look better? You go, oh Yeah, my, my mate Bill, he’s got a garden. Just like that’s the more specific you can be.

[00:29:16] Rachel: And it’s just like that with coaching or any sort of therapeutics, if you can actually describe that person rather than do you know anyone who wants coaching? Nah. Or.

[00:29:23] Jo: And nobody wants to hear this. No GP wants to hear this at all. ’cause everybody loves the fact they can help anybody. But I always say it doesn’t need to define you, but it gives needs to give you that traction to get out there in the world and tell people what you do. And you want to do exactly what Rachel said, be referable. Be that person that’s like, yeah, I know someone that’ll help you with that exact problem.

[00:29:42] Rachel: And also we’ll talk about marketing now, a colleague of mine talks about a bleeding neck problem.

[00:29:46] Jo: Yes. That’s Gemma,

[00:29:48] Rachel: Sounds awful. Gemma. Shout out to Gemma. But you know, Yes. everyone wants to transform their lives and feel better, but like, what is the thing that’s gonna kill you? I cannot sleep at night. I’ve only got two hours sleep for the last six months. I need someone who’s actually gonna help me sleep. That’s my bleeding neck problem.

[00:30:05] Jo: Absolutely. And lifestyle medicine and bleeding neck problems don’t go well together. So we have to often dig deep. And often the bleeding neck problem isn’t obvious. It can be relationship breakdowns, you know, shouting at the kids, alcoholism, you know, the, the bleeding neck problem is, is, is, is hidden. So it’s very difficult. And this is where language comes into it, messaging comes into it. And discovery calls. Getting on the, getting on the phone to people and finding out what the problem is. Anyway, we could actually

[00:30:32] Rachel: could talk about phages, but you know, the one thing, you know, don’t make something that no one else wants, you know, so you need to talk to people. Go, what would you like? Would you? And I’ve done that a couple of times. I’ve put out products. No, no one wanted it. And then I’ve always talked to ’em and said, well, we didn’t really want that but we want this.

[00:30:45] Rachel: Anyway, I’ve made a whole list here. So there’s, there’s things that you can do is like put your medical career, obviously you can be a trainer, an associate dean and training program director. You can, um, work with the GMC and investigations. You can be a medicolegal advisor. You can do all sorts of things like menopause, advise, lifestyle medicine, functional medicine, all those sorts of things. You can be a, a coaching with therapist, psychotherapeutics. You’d obviously need some training for a lot of that. You do Botox like you like like you did there, Jo. So anything as the medical field you could do.

[00:31:14] Rachel: But also iron own people that have been professional athletes. Become teachers, done some mirror art, done dog breeding, gone into pharma, um, and, you know, done drug discovery or, um, even, even pharma sales or worked for NICE doing research, running clinical trials. Some people I know have become teaching assistants because they wanted to just to go in and help. And someone I know that was really, um, high up in management at our local hospital now works as a carer for, for, for old people, and she, she has a few people and she absolutely loves that.

[00:31:46] Jo: I think university, university is a good one, isn’t it? And there are so many universities now popping up all over the place. Um, not just medical schools, but you, you know, working within, either within teaching or in within the mentoring capacity within the university.

[00:32:01] Jo: You’ve also got, um, you know, health tech companies and private companies. I’m seeing a lot of people that are going with the flashing lights of, oh, you know, I’m gonna match you with a venture capitalist and we’re gonna, you know, we’re gonna make this business idea come alive. I, I’d be very, very wary of, of those sorts of promises. I, I know a few people that have gone, like you say, jumped out of the soan straight into a health tech, VC-backed business disaster. So just be really mindful of that.

[00:32:26] Jo: But yeah, and I’ve got a friend who’s a travel coach, so she’s not, she’s not a travel agent, but she’s a travel coach. She’s using her expertise to support other people that want to travel adventurously. She’s amazing. Somebody that’s become a jeweler, um, learn, learn to be a silversmith. So, you know, is this about your passion? Is it a passion and creativity? Is it, um, um, about your money? Is it about money? Is it about your mental health? What is the reason?

[00:32:48] Jo: And I guess it comes back, we touched on the banfi pie thing, which I won’t go into that story, but, um, when anyone comes to any my free webinars that I run once a week, once a month, I talk about the banfi pie business model and the biscuit base. You know, banfi pies can look amazing, but taste rubbish. ’cause the biscuit base is all wrong. You’ve gotta get your solid good digestive biscuit base. And that is your why.

[00:33:10] Jo: Like, why, you know, is, why are you leaving medicine? Why are you looking for something else? Why are you wanting to do this thing? Because actually you can go down a path as I did with granola, which creates a bit of a monster. So whether it’s a, a business or a, you know, a, a hobby, or whether it’s a something outside of medicine, something within medicine, just consider, consider those things before you launch headfirst into it.

[00:33:35] Rachel: I think you need to understand you’re actually never gonna be as good as something as you were at your medical job to start off with. And that is, that is the problem. And also you are often jumping into a pond where there’s a lot of other fish doing the same as you. So you might not have the overwhelm with the patients, but you might get the other problem and that you haven’t got enough, enough people.

[00:33:57] Jo: And then you also get the green-eyed monster. So green-eyed monsters in a cold lake with lots of other fish. There’s our analogy for the day. So they’re in a co, you know, it’s cold, it’s a new environment. There are lots of other people in there that are used to that environment, and maybe it’s warmer for them. Um, and the green eye, you know, you get a bit jealous and a bit overwhelmed by other people’s content or how good other people seem to be doing things.

[00:34:21] Jo: You know, as soon as you come, somebody comes along and maybe they haven’t started, I. They’ve started after you, and actually they’re putting things out and making themselves uncomfortable. And then you feel like, well, if they’re doing it, I should be doing it. And then eventually you just think, well, I’ll just, I’ll just give up. It’s not for me. And that’s a real shame.

[00:34:36] Rachel: Yeah, because that’s actually, if someone’s doing the same as you, that’s a good sign. That means there’s a market for it, so you should be encouraged by that. So there are lots of things you can do. I think, I think the message we’re trying to get out there, Joey, is that it it, it’s not gonna solve all your problems leaving meds and doing something different. You need to know what your why is. And if, if you can make it work where you are, but by maybe diversifying and doing something different that’s, that is also just as good and will really help too.

[00:35:03] Rachel: What do you wish you’d known, I know I’ve asked you that before, but sort of looking back, what would your three top tips for people be?

[00:35:10] Jo: I’ve never said this out loud, but I wish I hadn’t left my partnership so soon because I was actually, I actually had a really great bunch of people behind me. Um, and I was able to do things three days a week that would’ve enabled me to be able to grow a business, but I was growing something that was outside of what I, what I really wanted to do.

[00:35:30] Jo: So, in summary, what I’m saying is that I wish I’d done, I wish I’d thought about my why sooner. I wish I’d maybe kept a bit more balanced for a bit longer. I’m not saying for much longer, but I was, I left very early, very in the process. So I wish I’d thought about my why.

[00:35:45] Jo: I, I feel like every single point I’ve got to, you could look back at what I’ve done over the last 15 years and say, oh my God, there’s a girl that doesn’t know what she wants to do. Um, you know, she’s a bit scatty. She goes from one thing to the other. But I look back and I, and I know that I could not be doing what I’m doing now if I hadn’t had every experience along the way.

[00:36:05] Jo: So I wish somebody had said to me, look, this is a journey. This is this one business that you’re starting now is not going to be the thing that you end up doing in 15 years time. ‘Cause I think along the way I felt this sort of almost, I put that on myself. I thought, oh, this hasn’t worked and then I’ve gone to the next thing that hasn’t worked on to the next thing. And now I look back and I’m like, it’s all worked because it’s all been a massive journey of learning.

[00:36:28] Jo: So I think if somebody had said to me you are gonna get where you want to, but it’s gonna take 15 to 20 years, not one to two years, that would’ve been a bit more realistic ’cause it’s 15 years since I, just, since I came up with the name Bendy Legs for the granola and started doing it properly. 15 years. That’s a long time. Um, so I, maybe I wouldn’t have done it if somebody had said that to me.

[00:36:50] Jo: But I think it’s the journey, not the destination is a really cheesy way of putting it. But you are learning all the time, so opening your curious mind. To learning, learning from the, the right thing, from the right people at the right time. I think that’s also critical.

[00:37:04] Jo: So learning, knowing what you need is difficult. So ask people, talk to people, get recommendations. Find your tribe of people that you can thrash ideas around with. Um, be brave, send the email, all of that stuff. I know that you know that you will have heard all of that before, but being, being brave and, and just asking the question is probably the most important thing you could do.

[00:37:26] Rachel: Yeah, thinking what would I have done differently? I think firstly, I would’ve tested my assumptions, like we just think we know it, but actually getting on the phone, talking to people and. Trying prototypes of stuff and seeing if anybody actually wants it, because there’s something called the Mum test.

[00:37:41] Rachel: Your mum will always tell you it’s brilliant. And other people will tell you it’s brilliant. You don’t know if it’s brilliant unless anyone actually buys it from you.

[00:37:49] Rachel: I think I would only focus on one thing rather than a million things. And I, I would try something and then, rather than learning from it and just do. it again a bit better, just start something else, then start something else and suddenly you’ve ended up with like a hundred different things.

[00:38:01] Rachel: And I think finding a tribe, finding a tribe of people alongside to support you, like we talk about, I’m in a mastermind, I’ve done loads of different courses and I’ve met so many different people from the courses. In fact, we were connected by a different tribe completely outside of medicine, we went, you two should know each other and you know, so it’s really wonderful when you find different people and getting into a mastermind is really, really helpful, either one with a business like you, um, starting mastermind later in the year for senior leaders in medicine. Just that peer support. I, I can’t tell you how valuable it is. Finding a tribe.

[00:38:33] Rachel: And the who, not how. Um, we are very used to doing stuff on our own as doctors and we’ve already joked about Canva going onto Canva, and we can create nice stuff on Canva, But it’s very, it’s never the same as getting a designer who actually knows what they’re doing or someone who can just sort out the email marketing or this or that. You know, just getting that expert and paying them a bit extra to do that thing that you don’t really know how to do is really, really important. We’re not quite so used to, to that in medicine, I think often ’cause then there is nobody to delegate to. But I think in our business we always say it’s who, not how. Who can I find that’s doing after having struggled, struggled with a, an issue with the mailing list for like 12 hours each we, we found an expert who fixed it in half an hour. You know, it’s just

[00:39:16] Jo: But I think, but I, but I think I would, yeah, I totally agree. But I think as a business owner, you’ve gotta have some concept of what all of that stuff is first. And I think, you know, people go, uh, you know, people go to outsourcing really quickly when you know you’ve got to, you’ve gotta have done it. You’ve gotta have seen what it’s like. You know, especially things like social media. Don’t just outsource those before you really, really know, you know who you’re helping and how you’re helping them, you are clear on what your language is, what your tone of voice is. Like. You’ve got people working with you, they’ve been working with you for ages, so you know, you, it’s seamless because it’s not what you enjoy doing, but they know how you communicate.

[00:39:50] Jo: So I think you’re right. Um, spending again, it’s like that right advice at the right time. It’s finding what you find really uncomfortable and gonna spend hours and hours on and go down rabbit holes, get rid of that thing and get somebody else to do it. And like you say, somebody who knows what they’re doing on Canva. And Polly quote, my business partner, she’s just amazing on Canva. And you know, she will just bring something alive in about five minutes. And I’m like, oh, that’s much better.

[00:40:16] Rachel: Yeah, so I, I do agree with you. I think when you own your business, you actually need to know enough to know what you don’t know, to know what that other person you’ve outsourced it to. So you say like, there’s this issue. I need you to go in and find out what’s, what’s going on, ’cause if you abate too much Yeah, you’re right, you end up with something that you’re like, ah, that’s not what I wanted, that, that’s completely wrong, whatever.

[00:40:37] Rachel: So anyway, we, we digress. Jerry, it’s been wonderful having you with us. If people wanted to find out more about you, more about your work, how, how can they get hold of you?

[00:40:45] Jo: Oh, it’s been an absolute pleasure. I love chatting with you, Rachel. I think we could, like you say, fill a weekend of, of discussions just about marketing.

[00:40:57] Jo: But if anyone wants to get in touch with me, my website is www.jowatkins.com. My email is jo@bendylegs.com, ’cause I’ve gotta keep the granola in there somewhere. Um, I’ve got various different ways that people can work with me, but what I’m finding really popular at the moment is what I’m calling a clarity starter kit. Basically gives you the first three modules of my course, and then you have a one-to-one with me so that we can get that kind of niche alignment thing. Like what is it that you really might want to do? And at that point, if you think business isn’t for you. Job done, otherwise we can like check in a couple of weeks later after some homework.

[00:41:26] Jo: So that’s a sort of a, a starter away ’cause I don’t want people to invest in the full program and one-to-one help unless they’re ready to make that move. So please just reach out, send me an email, say hello, follow me on LinkedIn or Instagram or wherever. And I’ve got a podcast as well. And I’m gonna put this episode on that too. So I’ll put your show notes but below and all your links as well, Rachel, ’cause you’ve got things coming up too, haven’t you?

[00:41:47] Rachel: We’ve got loads of stuff. We’ve got loads of stuff coming up. We’ve, um, Shapes Academy, we’ve got our Beat Stress and Thrive course, we’ve also got our, uh, FrogFest Virtual online events for leaders. We’ve got a Frog FrogFest face-to-face event in September, and we’ve also got a online conference for wellbeing leaders or leaders and managers and organizations just wanna think about wellbeing a bit differently.

[00:42:09] Rachel: And I really wish I had had someone like Jo when I was first starting this, you know, it would’ve been really good to have someone with a, a medical background who, who who knows, knows what it’s like. ‘Cause I think when you are not medical, you don’t quite know what it’s like being a doctor. You don’t know what skills people have or what they don’t have. ‘Cause there’s lots of skills we don’t have, but there’s lots of skills we actually do have.

[00:42:32] Rachel: Um, for example, you know, coaching actually was quite easy because you’ve got that consultation skills, you know, what an open or a closed question is, for example. So I think what you’re, you’re offering would be really, really valuable.

[00:42:43] Rachel: And I would also like to say, and you haven’t primed me to say this, but the one thing doctors don’t do very much is invest in themselves when they are doing a career change. You know, I spent quite a lot of money doing these courses to learn how to do podcasting, how to do this and that. It was the best money I had ever spent. But we are not used to investing in our own professional development. And I would say that’s the one really important thing you do. You set a budget for this and you say, I’m gonna invest in upskilling myself and getting the help that I need.

[00:43:14] Jo: Absolutely. Well, that’s, that’s great of you to say. And I, and I liken it, if you were gonna get a bakery on a high street, you’d have to rent the promises, you know, do it up, get some staff, get nice coffee machines, you’d spend a fortune. If you’re going to start a business, you need money for all the things that you need to start a business. And, and, and having a coach or a mentor is part of that, as is the website and the logo and all the shiny things that you think you need. So spend wisely, and if it’s not me, make sure it’s somebody else. If you want advice, I can signpost you to some amazing people. And yeah, it’s, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thanks Rachel.

[00:43:49] Rachel: Thanks for listening. Don’t forget, you can get extra bonus episodes and audio courses along with unlimited access to our library of videos and CPD workbooks by joining FrogXtra and FrogXtra Gold, our memberships to help busy professionals like you beat burnout and work happier. Find out more at youarenotafrog.com/members.